Schwartz v. Lawende

[c.d.]

"I don`t think Schwartz claimed he saw Stride been murdered."

He didn't and this extremely significant detail often gets overlooked by those wanting to beat up on Schwartz.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"as for the cashoo, obviously she held on to them while getting her throat cut, killed, and fallen/forced to the ground so whats the big deal that she also held on to them during the initial assault?"

Hello Abby,

Because it is two completely different situations and different principles apply.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

"I don`t think Schwartz claimed he saw Stride been murdered."

He didn't and this extremely significant detail often gets overlooked by those wanting to beat up on Schwartz.

c.d.

To be fair, the police decided Schwartz was the person most likely to have seen Stride's killer, while also adding the caveat that there was enough time another man could have come along and did her in. What has me perplexed is their seeming lack of interest in Pipeman.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Yes, because he wasn't supposed to have moved Stride. He wasn't a doctor. I'd wager it was he and not Blackwell who spilled the cachous, but Blackwell couldn't very well say that at the inquest.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The accepted title for a doctor was "Mr", and if you are an assistant to a doctor I'm pretty sure you have to be a doctor yourself. Typically an assistant was a doctor who was just recently qualified.
I'm sure I've seen a brief biography of him somewhere.

[c.d.]

To be fair, the police decided Schwartz was the person most likely to have seen Stride's killer, while also adding the caveat that there was enough time another man could have come along and did her in. What has me perplexed is their seeming lack of interest in Pipeman.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

You are right but I was addressing those posters (and you know who you are) who feel that if they can show that the B.S. man was most likely not her killer then it shows that Schwartz was lying. But we know, as you have pointed out, that that does not necessarily follow.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

The accepted title for a doctor was "Mr", and if you are an assistant to a doctor I'm pretty sure you have to be a doctor yourself. Typically an assistant was a doctor who was just recently qualified.
I'm sure I've seen a brief biography of him somewhere.

Ten years ago I published The Berner Street Mystery Pt. 1 in Ripper Notes and mistakenly referred to Johnston as Dr. Johnston. From the way I was raked over the coals I'm pretty sure he was not a doctor and that explains a lot of what wasn't said (but was inferred) at the inquest by Blackwell and Phillips.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

You are right but I was addressing those posters (and you know who you are) who feel that if they can show that the B.S. man was most likely not her killer then it shows that Schwartz was lying. But we know, as you have pointed out, that that does not necessarily follow.

c.d.

I believe there should be a measure of doubt regarding Schwartz's veracity, just as there would be in the case of any witness whose evidence was not corroborated, such as Mrs. Long and Hutchinson. But by the same token there's no reason to take the leap and conclude Schwartz was a liar and made the whole thing up. It's possible, of course. Packer was lying his face off, after all. But Packer's story was inconsistent and he gave details that were provably false, whereas Schwartz was consistent (with Abberline, at least, Star report aside) and nothing in his statement was apparently disproved. However, it's interesting that as more time went by it seems Lawende emerged as the penultimate Ripper witness, in spite of Swanson's comments in the Oct. 19th report to the effect that Schwartz was the better witness due to having had a better look at the man and victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

I'm pretty sure he was not a doctor

Totally off topic.

Would an MB,FRCP who was ethical not use Dr in that era!

Bit of a Killer.

[Tom_Wescott]

Totally off topic.

Would an MB,FRCP who was ethical not use Dr in that era!

Bit of a Killer.

Hi DJA, that's a bit over my head. I believe it was determined that Johnston was not actually a doctor, but it's been a decade and I cannot remember the details. It's worth a second look now.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

I seem to remember years ago checking medical registers for him and coming up with nothing. Of course there wasn't the regulation back then, as we all know barbers did surgery etc.

[DJA]

Hi DJA, that's a bit over my head.

No offence

You have been offered the project twice.

[John G]

There's too much going on and it's hard to keep up with. I'm also confused by John G and John Guy.

Jeff Leahy - Swartz got a look at BS Man's face. 'Broad-shouldered' was a term Abberline (and not Schwartz) used to describe a man of square or big (but not fat) build.

John G - Why do you think Stride's body was facing the street? Or did I read you wrong? She was facing the wall of the club.

She was attacked suddenly, but not with a knife. She was rendered unconscious, laid on the ground, and then murdered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

For clarification: I should have said that her legs/feet were facing the street, indicating that she was attempting to exit the Yard when attacked. Of course, it is possible that the killer spun her around, or subsequently repositioned the body (although I'm not sure why he would want to do that.)

Coroner:"Was she [Stride] near the gateway?"

Eagle: "Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate."

Coroner: "Her head towards the yard?"

Eagle: " Yes, her feet to the gate and her head to the yard."

Why do you say that Stride was "rendered unconscious, laid on the ground and then murdered"? I accept this is a possibility, but there's surely no proof that it happened that way.

[John G]

"I don`t think Schwartz claimed he saw Stride been murdered."

He didn't and this extremely significant detail often gets overlooked by those wanting to beat up on Schwartz.

c.d.

Hello c.d.,

Yes, I tend to agree, as I've noted he may have simply witnessed a common domestic assault, possibly involving a different couple. However, major discrepancies between the police report, and Schwartz's subsequent account given to the press, are cause for concern.

[John G]

Totally off topic.

Would an MB,FRCP who was ethical not use Dr in that era!

Bit of a Killer.

FRCP? Isn't that a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians? I believe today only consultants or equivalent would be eligible for such an exalted award: see https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/membership/fellowship

[Jeff Leahy]

I believe there should be a measure of doubt regarding Schwartz's veracity, just as there would be in the case of any witness whose evidence was not corroborated, such as Mrs. Long and Hutchinson. But by the same token there's no reason to take the leap and conclude Schwartz was a liar and made the whole thing up. It's possible, of course. Packer was lying his face off, after all. But Packer's story was inconsistent and he gave details that were provably false, whereas Schwartz was consistent (with Abberline, at least, Star report aside) and nothing in his statement was apparently disproved. However, it's interesting that as more time went by it seems Lawende emerged as the penultimate Ripper witness, in spite of Swanson's comments in the Oct. 19th report to the effect that Schwartz was the better witness due to having had a better look at the man and victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

That would assume of course that there wasn't another as yet 'unknown' jewish witness?

Yours Jeff