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Schwartz v. Lawende

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  • John G
    replied
    Originally posted by curious4 View Post
    Hello JohnG

    Le Grand was a criminal, but as far as I know there was nothing fishy about
    Batchelor. He may have taken on Le Grande in good faith. As for the times Packer gave the police, Swanson was, it appears, satisfied, although he (Packer) may have been quoted as giving different times in the newspapers, or become confused afterwards. Presumably White checked how late he stayed open while it was fresh in his mind.

    Best wishes
    C4
    Hi C4

    Yes, as far as the differences in timings are concerned I think it is possible to give Packers the benefit of the doubt, particularly as other witnesses had timing issues as well (although revising the 11:30 time he gave to Sergeant White for the closing of his shop to 12:30 in his Scotland Yard account, meant that his timings accorded much more closely with those of Schwartz and PC Smith and, of course, their evidence had been published in the newspapers by the time he visited Scotland Yard on the 2nd October.) Moreover, I would even accept the possibility that Grand and Batchelor were acting in good faith.

    Nonetheless, that still leaves major problems. Thus, Swanson is incorrect when he states that Packer was asked if he'd seen anything suspicious. What Sergeant White actually asked him was whether he'd seen anyone "standing about the street about the time he was closing his shop", or any man or woman going up Dutfield's Yard. His reply was emphatic: "No, I saw no one standing about neither did I see anyone go up the yard." This is completely irreconcilable with his second police statement, where he claims to have observed a man and woman for over half an hour-first standing and talking by the Board School, and then near to the club-up until the time when he "shut up [his] shutters."

    And, of course, he also told the press that he hadn't been spoken to by a police officer prior to his interview with the two private detectives, which is quite wrong as Sergeant White had taken his statement just two days earlier.

    And, as I stated in my previous post, I also think it suspicious that he continued to involve himself in the investigation:firstly, claiming to have seen the suspect again, and subsequently when he claimed to have sold rabbits to Jack the Ripper's cousin (in fact,the gives quite a detailed, and somewhat graphic, account of the conversation he had with the man.)

    So what could Packer's motives be for lying? Well, Philip Sugden suggests that he may have been influenced by the fact that the reward money greatly increased- in the intervening period from the time of the Sergeant White interview, to when he was spoken to by the private detectives: see Sugrden, 2002. And he certainly complained that he had failed to receive the remuneration he was promised. Another possibility, suggested by Sugden, is that it was a fantasy "designed to increase his modest grocer's status amongst his neighbours."

    The issue of the grapes also impacts on Packer's credibility. Thus, on 1 October, one day before he spoke to the private detectives, resulting in the the revised Scotland Yard statement, the Daily News carried statements from Louis Diemshutz, Issac Kozebrodski and Fanny Mortimer, claiming that Stride was found holding a bunch of grapes in her hand (Packer of course, would have had the opportunity to read these accounts, as would Grand and Batchelor).

    However, as Sugden also points out, the "details about the grapes appears to have been a baseless fiction." Both Dr Phillips and Dr Blackwell emphatically denied that they'd seen any grapes, and even Louis changed his account, whilst under oath at the inquest, telling Baxter, "I did not notice what position her [Stride's] hands were in."
    Last edited by John G; 02-07-2016, 04:12 AM.

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  • S.Brett
    replied
    Thanks John,

    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Hi Karsten.

    I hadn't thought of that, not being a pipe smoker

    I used to work with a man who cleaned the bowl of his pipe with a small knife before he filled it to smoke again.
    So Schwartz may have seen a man cleaning his pipe rather than lighting his pipe, or perhaps he determined the cleaning was all part of the function of lighting the pipe, which wouldn't actually be incorrect.

    Schwartz: "I saw a second man standing lighting his pipe."

    Reporter: " Just standing there watching?"

    Schwartz: "No, actually he took out a knife to clean the bowl....."

    Reporter: (interrupting) "..you saw the man had a knife?, ok, this is great stuff Mr Schwartz, carry on"

    Who knows how misleading stories begin...
    That is the answer I expected from you! Back to Packer:

    I think it is possible that Packer knew the man and the woman who bought the grapes but did he know that she is the same woman murdered next to his shop when the police came questioning him?

    Maybe he believed that this persons ("the man in the next street"), knowing them by sight, had nothing to do with the crime. I think it is not impossible when he saw Stride in the mortuary (days later) that he did realize the man he saw with her ("the man in the next street") could be her murder (and perhaps Jack the Ripper). It is very likely that he saw this man again (end of October 1888) coming out from the Greenfield Street. If "Kosminski" is Aaron Kozminski we know that his sister (Matilda) and one of his brothers (Isaac) were living in Greenfield Street at that time. And on the way to the other brother (Woolf) in Providence Street was the shop of Packer...

    I am convinct that "Kosminski" was already a prime suspect in October 1888. Maybe the police thought (during the October) that BS Man is the murderer more likely than PC Smith´s suspect. And maybe they thought Packer is telling the story of PC Smith (in each case "Kosminski" did not correspond with the descriptions Schwartz, PC Smith, Packer gave). But everything changed when Packer saw this man again...

    Scenario:

    Stride lying inside the Yard, dead. Packer is present.

    Policeman: Hey,you, Mr. Packer, do you know this woman?
    Packer: Yes, by sight. I saw a man with her that night, buying grapes in my shop!
    Policeman: Do you know the man?
    Packer: By sight, he is living in the next street!

    In this case Packer would have seen the same couple as PC Smith did. And if this man was "Kosminski", Packer would have seen a police suspect, a strong suspect with many circs from other sources (City Police, bloody shirt). Very likely that Packer told the truth. And maybe the police changed their mind about BS Man being the murderer of Stride.

    Maybe that the man with Stride, seen by Packer and PC Smith, was already inside the Dutfields Yard when BS Man, Schwartz and Pipeman appeared on the scene.

    Karsten.
    Last edited by S.Brett; 02-07-2016, 03:34 AM.

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  • curious4
    replied
    Originally posted by John G View Post
    Hi Jon,

    Well, I seriously doubt that Sergeant White lied in his report. I also doubt that Packer lied because he didn't want to get involved. In fact, I would argue the opposite, i.e. that he was an attention seeker, based upon his continued attempts to insert himself into the inquiry. Thus, as I noted previously, he subsequently claimed to have seen the suspect again, but he apparently escaped on a tram; and then claimed that he sold rabbits to a man who suspected his cousin was Jack the Ripper: in fact, he gave a very detailed account of this encounter, recounting what the man had to say in graphic detail: http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

    And, as I noted in my earlier post, he also lied when he said he hadn't been spoken to by the police, when Sergeant White had clearly taken a statement for him.

    Regarding Packer's timings being consistent with other witnesses. Firstly, he gives different times, in different accounts, for the closing of his shop, i.e. 11:30, 12:30. Secondly, by the time he gave his second statement he would no doubt be aware, from the newspapers, of statements given by other witnesses who claimed to have seen Stride, and the timings they gave.

    Of course, the fact that Packer only came forward with his second account at the behest of a convicted criminal excites suspicion, as does his subsequent complaints about not receiving expected remuneration.
    Hello JohnG

    Le Grand was a criminal, but as far as I know there was nothing fishy about
    Batchelor. He may have taken on Le Grande in good faith. As for the times Packer gave the police, Swanson was, it appears, satisfied, although he (Packer) may have been quoted as giving different times in the newspapers, or become confused afterwards. Presumably White checked how late he stayed open while it was fresh in his mind.

    Best wishes
    C4

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by John G View Post
    Hi Jon,

    Well, I seriously doubt that Sergeant White lied in his report.
    Correct John, but to be fair it is an alternate, regardless how doubtful it is.

    I also doubt that Packer lied because he didn't want to get involved.
    The desire to get involved is not always planned ahead of time. It can evolve, especially if the prospective witness becomes aware there may be a small financial benefit.

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  • John G
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Hi John.
    Yes, agreed, he was making the point that the earlier heavy rain had kept the streets quiet of potential customers.
    Not that it was raining at the time he shut up shop.




    Yes, I also agree here that Packer was lying when he first spoke to Sgt. White in denying seeing anyone about.
    We know people were about, so we know he was lying, the question is, why?
    I take the view that he just didn't want to get involved. Not an unusual response for the time.
    This does happen today, a witness may initially claim to have seen or heard nothing because they don't want to get involved, only to change their mind a short time later and tell all they know.
    It's no good treating this as highly suspicious, it's more like human nature, from time to time it happens.

    The alternate conclusion might be, that Sgt. White was lying when he wrote that he'd asked Packer about the night, and Packer had replied in the negative.
    Is Sgt. White just covering for himself in being remiss about not thinking to question Packer?
    Not a popular conclusion to draw I imagine.




    Right, but Swanson's remarks are not aimed at the Coroner's inquiry, he is thinking ahead to a potential criminal case should the killer be caught.
    The Coroner makes his own mind up about who is called to appear.

    After all the statements made by Packer are analyzed, we are still left with one basic question.
    Because Packer did lie at some point, and appears to have also told some truths, does this mean that the man he claimed to see with Stride never existed?

    My view is, it does not. Stride was with a man, around that time and at that location.
    Therefore, some of what Packer claimed to see was correct.
    Hi Jon,

    Well, I seriously doubt that Sergeant White lied in his report. I also doubt that Packer lied because he didn't want to get involved. In fact, I would argue the opposite, i.e. that he was an attention seeker, based upon his continued attempts to insert himself into the inquiry. Thus, as I noted previously, he subsequently claimed to have seen the suspect again, but he apparently escaped on a tram; and then claimed that he sold rabbits to a man who suspected his cousin was Jack the Ripper: in fact, he gave a very detailed account of this encounter, recounting what the man had to say in graphic detail: http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

    And, as I noted in my earlier post, he also lied when he said he hadn't been spoken to by the police, when Sergeant White had clearly taken a statement for him.

    Regarding Packer's timings being consistent with other witnesses. Firstly, he gives different times, in different accounts, for the closing of his shop, i.e. 11:30, 12:30. Secondly, by the time he gave his second statement he would no doubt be aware, from the newspapers, of statements given by other witnesses who claimed to have seen Stride, and the timings they gave.

    Of course, the fact that Packer only came forward with his second account at the behest of a convicted criminal excites suspicion, as does his subsequent complaints about not receiving expected remuneration.
    Last edited by John G; 02-06-2016, 03:41 PM.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by S.Brett View Post
    Hi Jon!

    Thinking about your words... lies and truths... police, press, Le Grand...



    ... just as I am sitting... lighting one of my clay pipes...

    Did Schwartz tell the truth? About the knife?

    Schwartz (police report): "he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe"
    Schwartz (press report) : "states positively that he saw a knife in the second man's hand"

    In one hand holding the clay pipe and in my other hand holding the pipe tamper. I am wondering if it is possible that Schwartz did see a clay pipe and a pipe tamper and he thought that the pipe tamper is a knife?

    My tamper is very small but perhaps they were not that small around 1900.

    What do you think?

    Karsten.
    Hi Karsten.

    I hadn't thought of that, not being a pipe smoker

    I used to work with a man who cleaned the bowl of his pipe with a small knife before he filled it to smoke again.
    So Schwartz may have seen a man cleaning his pipe rather than lighting his pipe, or perhaps he determined the cleaning was all part of the function of lighting the pipe, which wouldn't actually be incorrect.

    Schwartz: "I saw a second man standing lighting his pipe."

    Reporter: " Just standing there watching?"

    Schwartz: "No, actually he took out a knife to clean the bowl....."

    Reporter: (interrupting) "..you saw the man had a knife?, ok, this is great stuff Mr Schwartz, carry on"

    Who knows how misleading stories begin...

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  • S.Brett
    replied
    Hi Jon!

    Thinking about your words... lies and truths... police, press, Le Grand...

    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    After all the statements made by Packer are
    analyzed, we are still left with one basic question.
    Because Packer did lie at some point, and appears to have also told some truths, does this mean that the man he claimed to see with Stride never existed?
    ... just as I am sitting... lighting one of my clay pipes...

    Did Schwartz tell the truth? About the knife?

    Schwartz (police report): "he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe"
    Schwartz (press report) : "states positively that he saw a knife in the second man's hand"

    In one hand holding the clay pipe and in my other hand holding the pipe tamper. I am wondering if it is possible that Schwartz did see a clay pipe and a pipe tamper and he thought that the pipe tamper is a knife?

    My tamper is very small but perhaps they were not that small around 1900.

    What do you think?

    Karsten.

    Leave a comment:


  • curious4
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    It's a shame the second couple seen in Berner St. that night were not asked if they had been to Packer's shop at any time. That possibility may clarify some of our problems.
    Hello Jon

    Perhaps they were?

    Best wishes
    Gwyneth

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  • curious4
    replied
    From Swanson's report to the Home Office 19th October 1888, as quoted in Evans and Skinner's JTR Sourcebook.

    "Mr Packer when asked by the police stated that he did not see any suspicious persons about, and it was not until after the publication in the newspapers of the description of the man seen by the P.C. that Mr Packer gave the foregoing particulars to two private enquiry men acting conjointly with the Vigilance Comtee. .....................

    Packer, who is an elderly man, has unfortunately made different statements so that apart from the fact of the hour at which he saw the woman (and she was seen afterwards by the P.C. & Schwartz as stated) any statement he made would be rendered almost valueless as evidence."

    This actually also gives credence to Schwartz' testimony.

    Packer was old and doddery (in his sixties, but people do age differently) and was considered to be a bad witness for those reasons, but Swanson believed him.

    Best wishes
    C4

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by John G View Post

    In other words, he doesn't actually say that it was raining when he closed his shop; his statement might simply mean that earlier inclement weather conditions had deterred, and was probably still deterring, potential customers from going out, so because of poor trading throughout the evening he decided to close early.
    Hi John.
    Yes, agreed, he was making the point that the earlier heavy rain had kept the streets quiet of potential customers.
    Not that it was raining at the time he shut up shop.


    However, as I've argued before, his latter statements to the police and the press simply cannot be remotely reconciled with what he initially told Sergeant White.
    Yes, I also agree here that Packer was lying when he first spoke to Sgt. White in denying seeing anyone about.
    We know people were about, so we know he was lying, the question is, why?
    I take the view that he just didn't want to get involved. Not an unusual response for the time.
    This does happen today, a witness may initially claim to have seen or heard nothing because they don't want to get involved, only to change their mind a short time later and tell all they know.
    It's no good treating this as highly suspicious, it's more like human nature, from time to time it happens.

    The alternate conclusion might be, that Sgt. White was lying when he wrote that he'd asked Packer about the night, and Packer had replied in the negative.
    Is Sgt. White just covering for himself in being remiss about not thinking to question Packer?
    Not a popular conclusion to draw I imagine.


    Is it hardly a wonder, therefore, that Swanson felt compelled to report that, "any statement he [Packer] made would be rendered almost valueless as evidence", i.e. on account of his drastically changed story and his association with the crook Charles Grand? In fact, is there another witness throughout the Ripper enquiry whose evidence was condemned in such unequivocal terms?
    Right, but Swanson's remarks are not aimed at the Coroner's inquiry, he is thinking ahead to a potential criminal case should the killer be caught.
    The Coroner makes his own mind up about who is called to appear.

    After all the statements made by Packer are analyzed, we are still left with one basic question.
    Because Packer did lie at some point, and appears to have also told some truths, does this mean that the man he claimed to see with Stride never existed?

    My view is, it does not. Stride was with a man, around that time and at that location.
    Therefore, some of what Packer claimed to see was correct.

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  • curious4
    replied
    He was believed by Swanson. He sent a report to his superiors regarding Packer. What reason would there be for not believing his account apart from the fact that he was old and shaky and would not have made a good witness and was obviously afraid that the killer would exact some revenge upon him.

    And please DON'T accuse other posters who don't agree with your ideas of not being serious.

    C4

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    An awful lot of time and effort being spent on a witness that almost every serious Ripper student has long discarded.

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  • curious4
    replied
    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
    Hello C4,

    I have to respectfully, but strongly disagree.

    Once a VERY high profile murder took place in the street, everyone and everything that happened that night became significant and important.

    The street quickly filled with crowds, Packer would have seized the opportunity and sold his goods to them. I'm guessing every single customer would have been talking about and asking about the previous nights goings on.
    Hello Dusty

    We shall have to agree to differ ��. However: Packer was interviewed first by the police, by the time Le Grande had got to him (and after the grapes rumour had begun to circulate - to my mind the "grapes" were bloodclots), he may have begun to reflect on which customers had bought grapes and hey presto the couple he sold grapes to sprang to mind. Packer usually sold at the market so we can't be sure he sold to the crowds in the street, but I agree he would have heard the gossip, but AFTER he had talked to the police. I presume they would have begun their questioning with those living nearest to the crime scene.

    Best wishes
    C4

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  • John G
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    A fine example of an unreliable witness, but does this uncertainty mean the man he saw didn't exist?
    Or, does it mean Packer's eyesight was not good enough to be sure what he saw?

    It has been suggested that Packer only came forward with his version after reading the witness description published in the press, ie PC Smith's suspect:

    The following description has been circulated by the police of a man said to have been seen with the deceased during Saturday evening: -'' Age 28. Slight. Height 5ft. 8in. Complexion dark. No whiskers. Black diagonal coat. Hard felt hat. Collar and tie. Carried newspaper parcel. Respectable appearance.''

    Yet Packer first described his 'suspect' as:

    The man was middle aged, perhaps 35 years; about five feet seven inches in height; was stout, square built; wore a wideawake hat and dark clothes; had the appearance of a clerk; had a rough voice and a quick, sharp way of talking.

    And in the same article:
    The man was about thirty to thirty five years of age, medium height, and with rather a dark complexion. He wore a black coat and a black, soft felt hat. He looked to me like a clerk or something of that sort.

    Apart from the height, we read nothing that speaks to an attempt to make his suspect look like the same man described in the press.
    It would be rather odd for a witness to invent his own suspect to, if you like "jump on the bandwagon" (like yeh, I saw him too!), yet give a description that can't be reasoned to describe the same man.

    The published description of PC Smith's suspect is not much to remember, yet Packer appears to have made no attempt to make the one look like the other.
    Packer was 58 years old, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his eyesight was deficient, probably near-sighted?
    Hi Jon,

    I would agree that the issue of whether it was raining is not, in itself, fatal for Packer's evidence, at least until his drastically modified accounts. Thus, when first interviewed by Sergeant White he stated that he closed early because, "in consequence of the rain it was no good for me to keep open."

    In other words, he doesn't actually say that it was raining when he closed his shop; his statement might simply mean that earlier inclement weather conditions had deterred, and was probably still deterring, potential customers from going out, so because of poor trading throughout the evening he decided to close early.

    Moreover, at this stage he wasn't claiming that he had seen Stride with a suspect or, indeed, seeing anything suspicious, so he had no reason to lie.

    However, as I've argued before, his latter statements to the police and the press simply cannot be remotely reconciled with what he initially told Sergeant White. To recap: in his initial police interview he was asked, "if he saw anyone standing about the street about the time he was closing his shop." And it's important to note here that he isn't similar being asked if he'd noticed anything suspicious. He replied, "No, I saw no one standing about neither did I see anyone going up the yard."

    But, in marked contrast, in his Scotland Yard account he says that he observed a couple talking to one another, by the Board School, for half an hour, just prior to closing his shop: "They passed through as though they going up Commercial Road, but instead of going up they crossed to the other side of the road to the Board School, and were there for about half an hour...talking to one another. I then shut my shutters."

    In fact, as I noted in my earlier post, he elaborates further by saying, " Before they passed over opposite to my shop, they went near to the club for a few minutes apparently listening to the music. I saw no more of them after I shut up my shutters."

    So, how could he possibly think that seeing a couple conversing, for several minutes, outside the very premises where Stride's body would subsequently be discovered, wasn't relevant? It simply defies belief. After all, he subsequently decided that selling a man a pack of grapes-hardly an unusual event for a fruiterer- amounted to highly relevant information!

    And let's not forget that three other witnesses-Marshall, Brown and PC Smith-didn't see anything suspicious that night either- like Packer, they simply witnessed an everyday occurrence of a man and woman in conversation together-but that didn't stop them from reporting what they'd observed.

    And then we have Packer's interview with the Evening News, 4 October 1888. After telling the reporter that he observed a couple standing opposite the Yard for half an hour, he was asked "Well, Mr Packer, I suppose the police came at once to ask you and your wife what you knew about the affair, as soon as ever the body was discovered." He replied, "The police? No. They haven't asked me a word about it yet!"

    Now this is an obvious lie because, of course, Sergeant White had by this time spoken to both Packer and his wife, when he denied seeing anyone standing about, let alone for half an hour. Nonetheless, during the newspaper interview Packer did happen to remember the less pertinent fact that a detective had visited him, asking to see the back of his yard to see if anyone had climbed over!

    Is it hardly a wonder, therefore, that Swanson felt compelled to report that, "any statement he [Packer] made would be rendered almost valueless as evidence", i.e. on account of his drastically changed story and his association with the crook Charles Grand? In fact, is there another witness throughout the Ripper enquiry whose evidence was condemned in such unequivocal terms?
    Last edited by John G; 02-06-2016, 06:54 AM.

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  • DJA
    replied
    Reasonable chance it was the same couple.

    Gotta use Ocker's Razor

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