Schwartz v. Lawende

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Nice to see you posting again.

If Schwartz was somehow associated with the club then it would make no sense for Eagle to assault him, correct?

c.d.

Good to see you as well, Ceeds. That's correct. If BS Man was Eagle, then Schwartz was not associated with the club, and vice verse. It's a quagmire.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

The killer had took the time to arrange Chapman's few belongings neatly by the side of her body. As you have said, Eddowes was found with a thimble lying very near to her hand. It's possible that the killer actualy placed it on her finger, it being dislodged by either the killer knocking her hand as he cut off a section of her apron, or perhaps becoming dislodged by one of the policemen, or doctors.

I speculated some time ago that the cashous had possibly been placed there by the killer. It's a similar kind of mocking action, which was in evidence at the scene of the Chapman, and Eddowes murders.

Hi Obsy. Chapman's items were actually at her feet (not her side) and might have fallen there from her hands when standing, in the process of the killer robbing her of her rings, which must have happened while she was alive and not after death, because her hands were quite clenched in the death throws. Since there were only three items I'm not convinced they were arranged. They may have landed the way they did. Or they may in fact have been arranged by the killer before or after he crawled between her legs to cut.

Given the position of Stride's body it's extremely unlikely the cachous could have been placed in her hand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

And the organs removed from Kelly were not discarded at random, but appear to have been intentionally placed where they were found.
So, it appears you may have found a reasonable case to suggest the killer placed those cachous in Stride's hand afterall.
Good thinking Obs.

It makes logical sense, but the position of Stride's body and hand make it extremely unlikely that he could have positioned a tissue paper with cachous in a dead and closed hand without spilling any. She really must have been holding them at the time she died and her hands closed up.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Tom

The killer had took the time to arrange Chapman's few belongings neatly by the side of her body. As you have said, Eddowes was found with a thimble lying very near to her hand. It's possible that the killer actualy placed it on her finger, it being dislodged by either the killer knocking her hand as he cut off a section of her apron, or perhaps becoming dislodged by one of the policemen, or doctors.

I speculated some time ago that the cashous had possibly been placed there by the killer. It's a similar kind of mocking action, which was in evidence at the scene of the Chapman, and Eddowes murders.

Hi observer
I would say those objects being found near the victims body is indicative of the killer discarding them after rifling through their pockets, perhaps looking for something of value, or perhaps even looking to take his money back.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi observer
I would say those objects being found near the victims body is indicative of the killer discarding them after rifling through their pockets, perhaps looking for something of value, or perhaps even looking to take his money back.

They weren't near the pockets and the portion of envelope was near Chapman's head. I think it remained in her hand just as the tissue with the cachous did in Stride's.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

John, Liz Stride lay a mere four and a half feet inside the entrance to the yard, there was no need to drag or carry her the mere two paces from the pavement

Hi Observer,

Yes, that's a fair point. However, even if we're only talking about, say, a couple of yards from where Schwartz saw Stride lying on the pavement -after being thrown down by BS man-he still needs to get her though the gate.

How did he achieve this? Well, I doubt she would have entered the pitch black yard voluntarily after just bring assaulted by the man. One possibility is that he threatened her with a knife-after seeing off Schwartz- and forced her into the yard at knife point. That would explain why she didn't cry out again-but not why nobody but Schwartz heard the initial screams-but doesn't explain the position of the body, i.e. facing the street.

In other words, in this scenario Stride would have had to walk backwards into the yard, which seems extremely unlikely. However, it is possible that she was attacked from behind and spun around.

But at what point does she take out the cachous. I doubt that she would have been relaxed enough to take them out whilst being threatened at knife point, or after being thrown onto the pavement, at which point her concern-and attention-would surely have been focused on BS man and what he intended to do next.

If she had them in her hand prior to being assaulted by BS man, that creates problems. For instance, how did she retain hold of them, and without spilling any on to the pavement, after being thrown down on the footway by BS man? As noted in earlier posts, her instinct would surely have been to throw out her hands, and spread her fingers, to break the fall, thus spilling the cachous. And, if she didn't break her fall, might she not have sustained a head injury-or at least some other form of impact injury-of which there was no sign?

And then Schwartz states that he "tried to pull the woman into the street". Now surely Stride would have instinctively resisted-this is also implied by the fact that he didn't succeed-at which point, as she opened her hand(s) to pull back, the cachous would have been dropped into the street.

[John G]

Men don't typically notice things like flowers, just as women are bad at noticing things like make/models of cars. Likewise, in 1888 a man was more apt to notice jacket and hat as those were status symbols. There's also the matter that in Brown's case the man was blocking a good portion of Stride's body, but evidently not her face.



It may be in my next book.



The cachous are extremely easy to explain. She reached for the money to give her robber/killer and only at that time did the tissue holding the cachous lodge between her thumb and forefinger. She was then murdered. Same reason there's a thimble next to Eddowes' hand and an envelope under Chapman's head.



It was believed then and is still the predominant thought that Smith's man and Schwartz's man are two different men. Stride likely went nowhere with Smith's man and then melted into the gateway to solicit passerby, such as BS Man, who quite possibly may have been nothing more than an irate Morris Eagle removing her from his gateway on his way back into the club, choosing to assault the obviously Jewish looking Schwartz in the process. Let's not forget what a local, probably Abraham Ashbrigh, had to say about them at the time: "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion."

Schwartz essentially describes a man pulling Stride from the gateway and then tossing her down and yelling at him. He doesn't see a knife. Morris Eagle was said to have reacted upon seeing Stride dead and he explained his reaction as him being squeamish about dead bodies. That might have been so or it might have been that he'd just confronted that woman minutes earlier.

Schwartz is not a perfect witness. There's reasons to believe him and reasons not to believe him. He may have been lying, or he may have been telling the truth about what he saw, but what he saw might be irrelevant to her actual murder. Or he might have seen her murderer and it was Jack. Or it wasn't Jack. See what I mean?

What I DO know is that we cannot view the hard evidence (i.e. corroborated witnesses, crime scene evidence, etc.) through the lens of Schwartz because you'll get nowhere. Schwartz might be irrelevant. I don't think he is, but he might be. However, if he was lying, he was an extremely lucky liar because his evidence was supported pretty well by Mortimer and Brown.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I'm assuming that your argument is that Stride could have been the victim of a street robbery, and that she pulled out the cachous inside the yard whilst reaching for her money. However, at this point Stride and her killer must have been facing each other, so doesn't this imply a full-frontal assault? And, if this was the case, wouldn't Stride have had the opportunity to put up some sort of resistance? Wouldn't you have expected to see defensive wounds? Wouldn't she have dropped the cachous as she instinctively raised her hands in defence?

It is for these reasons that I believe that Stride was probably taken by surprise, from behind, thereby given no warning or opportunity to resist.

I agree that Eagle could have been BS man, but not her killer.

Regarding Brown and Schwartz, they may have seen the same couple, but Brown was only estimating the time of the sighting, and Schwartz may have been. In other words, either men could have be out by, say, 15 minutes-like Heschberg-or even as much as half an hour-like Spooner.

Glad to hear you've got a new book coming out. I thought the Bank Holiday Murders was excellent, one of the best books I've read on the subject.

[Jon Guy]

but doesn't explain the position of the body, i.e. facing the street.

In other words, in this scenario Stride would have had to walk backwards into the yard, which seems extremely unlikely..

Hi John

I`ll be honest, I had to check it wasn`t April 1st when I read the above !!
I know LC suggests this, which is a red flag in itself.

Instead of her walking backwards (which may be the case in your scenario of someone holding a knife to her), why could she not have been pushed back the couple of steps to where her body lay.

[Jeff Leahy]

Just picking up quickly on a number of comments here...

The fact that Schwartz doesn't describe BSM's face but his rear (i.e. broad shoulders) suggest to me that schwartz didn't get a good look at BSM's face.

This would suggest to me that BSM must had been in the dark rather than on the better lite pathway.

As Schwartz crossed the road, as stride is thrown to the ground his POV view changes by 90 degrees. So by the time BSM turns and shouts 'Lipski' he has no idea with his direct 180 degree POV how far into the yard or on the pavement, give or take a few feet, that BSM actually is....

So if as Schwartz crosses the road while the altercation is taking place, the couple could have moved further into the dark by a few feet without schwartz being able to tell.... If he runs and doesn't look back then its possible he never actually got a good look at BSM's face. Also that BSM and Stride could have been further inside the yard than he thought.

Karsten has aleady raised the interesting argument that if Kozminski came to police attention early in the investigation then its pretty unlikely that the police would not have attempted to use him....So however you figure the balance Schwartz must have been a failed witness. To our knowledge he isn't used again by police and it now seems likely that he was the witness referred to by Anderson and Swanson....

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

and it now seems likely that he was the witness referred to by Anderson and Swanson....
Yours Jeff

Should have read UNLIKELY... my apologies for my dyslexia

Just noticed this Jef

[John G]

Hi John

I`ll be honest, I had to check it wasn`t April 1st when I read the above !!
I know LC suggests this, which is a red flag in itself.

Instead of her walking backwards (which may be the case in your scenario of someone holding a knife to her), why could she not have been pushed back the couple of steps to where her body lay.

Hi Jon,

Astute as ever I see! Of course, I didn't mean to suggest that walking backwards into the yard was the only possible scenario. In fact, if I had, I would agree that it probably would have been April Fools Day!

Of course, Stride may have been pushed backwards, but that is not what Schwartz says in his police account , although he does, of course, say that she was pushed back into the passage, by a now half drunk BS man, in his very different press version of events. However, quite apart from the major account discrepancies, there's no evidence that Stride had suffered any impact injuries, and this scenario still doesn't explain how she held on to the cachous.

Another scenario that has been proposed to explain the body position is that Stride was spun around by her killer. However, I consider this unlikely. Thus, you may be aware that there is an excellent photograph of the entrance to Dutfield's Yard in Evans and Rumbelow's book, Scotland Yard Investigates, 2006, p100.

And what strikes me is how narrow the passageway entrance is. I mean, it looks even smaller than the graphic in CSI Whitechapel, 2012, and hardly wide enough to drive a pony and cart through. And, if two people were to enter side by side, I would have thought they would feel decidedly cramped. I therefore think that a perpetrator would have found it quite difficult, but not impossible, to spin Stride around in such a constricted space, i.e. because of lack of room to carry out such a manoeuvre.

Okay, this is what I think might have happened. Stride is soliciting by the entrance to Dutfield's Yard. Her killer approaches and, after agreeing a price, they complete the transaction. Stride then takes out the cachous, to freshen her breath, before entering the Yard, her killer following directly behind her.

However, her killer doesn't strike immediately-he wants to get further into the Yard, i e. away from the gate where he might be interrupted by a passer by (this would be all the more the case if he needed time to mutilate the body.)

Nonetheless, at some point Stride senses danger: maybe it's just intuition; perhaps there's just something about the man that makes her feel uncomfortable (and she would, no doubt, be mindful of the Ripper scare and, who knows, might just have been assaulted by BS Man, which would make her even more cautious!); possibly she senses him draw his knife, as he looms behind her, poised to strike.

In any event, she impulsively changes her mind, turns rapidly around, and heads for the exit, possibly clutching the cachous even tighter, i.e. because she's worried.

Her killer is caught temporarily off guard, and might not be able to even see Stride at this point, on account of the yard being cloaked in darkness. However, he senses what has happened, as Stride brushes past him and, quickly regaining his composure, he follows Stride out, catching her just before the exit, where he grabs her neck, eases her to the ground, and slits her throat (I think it's also been argued that she may have grasped the cachous, after her throat was cut, as as consequences of a cadaveric spasm.)

Feel free to criticize, as I put my helmet on and head quietly to the trenches!

[John G]

Just picking up quickly on a number of comments here...

The fact that Schwartz doesn't describe BSM's face but his rear (i.e. broad shoulders) suggest to me that schwartz didn't get a good look at BSM's face.

This would suggest to me that BSM must had been in the dark rather than on the better lite pathway.

As Schwartz crossed the road, as stride is thrown to the ground his POV view changes by 90 degrees. So by the time BSM turns and shouts 'Lipski' he has no idea with his direct 180 degree POV how far into the yard or on the pavement, give or take a few feet, that BSM actually is....

So if as Schwartz crosses the road while the altercation is taking place, the couple could have moved further into the dark by a few feet without schwartz being able to tell.... If he runs and doesn't look back then its possible he never actually got a good look at BSM's face. Also that BSM and Stride could have been further inside the yard than he thought.

Karsten has aleady raised the interesting argument that if Kozminski came to police attention early in the investigation then its pretty unlikely that the police would not have attempted to use him....So however you figure the balance Schwartz must have been a failed witness. To our knowledge he isn't used again by police and it now seems likely that he was the witness referred to by Anderson and Swanson....

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

But, after being thrown to the ground, at which point does Stride move "further into the dark"?

I agree that Schwartz, like Hutchinson, was probably a failed to witness, and I don't believe he was subsequently utilized in the investigation. I really wonder if the major discrepancies between the press version of his account and the police version may have acted to seriously undermine his credibility. Just a thought...

[John G]

Hi John

I`ll be honest, I had to check it wasn`t April 1st when I read the above !!
I know LC suggests this, which is a red flag in itself.

Instead of her walking backwards (which may be the case in your scenario of someone holding a knife to her), why could she not have been pushed back the couple of steps to where her body lay.

Hi Jon,

I would just note, for completeness, that I did say that Stride walking backwards was "extremely unlikely"! And whether Stride was pushed, pulled or thrown, there is still a need to explain how she retained hold of the cachous, not to mention the lack of other injuries, i.e. impact injuries, to Stride's body.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

Astute as ever I see! Of course, I didn't mean to suggest that walking backwards into the yard was the only possible scenario. In fact, if I had, I would agree that it probably would have been April Fools Day!

Of course, Stride may have been pushed backwards, but that is not what Schwartz says in his police account , although he does, of course, say that she was pushed back into the passage, by a now half drunk BS man, in his very different press version of events. However, quite apart from the major account discrepancies, there's no evidence that Stride had suffered any impact injuries, and this scenario still doesn't explain how she held on to the cachous.

Another scenario that has been proposed to explain the body position is that Stride was spun around by her killer. However, I consider this unlikely. Thus, you may be aware that there is an excellent photograph of the entrance to Dutfield's Yard in Evans and Rumbelow's book, Scotland Yard Investigates, 2006, p100.

And what strikes me is how narrow the passageway entrance is. I mean, it looks even smaller than the graphic in CSI Whitechapel, 2012, and hardly wide enough to drive a pony and cart through. And, if two people were to enter side by side, I would have thought they would feel decidedly cramped. I therefore think that a perpetrator would have found it quite difficult, but not impossible, to spin Stride around in such a constricted space, i.e. because of lack of room to carry out such a manoeuvre.

Okay, this is what I think might have happened. Stride is soliciting by the entrance to Dutfield's Yard. Her killer approaches and, after agreeing a price, they complete the transaction. Stride then takes out the cachous, to freshen her breath, before entering the Yard, her killer following directly behind her.

However, her killer doesn't strike immediately-he wants to get further into the Yard, i e. away from the gate where he might be interrupted by a passer by (this would be all the more the case if he needed time to mutilate the body.)

Nonetheless, at some point Stride senses danger: maybe it's just intuition; perhaps there's just something about the man that makes her feel uncomfortable (and she would, no doubt, be mindful of the Ripper scare and, who knows, might just have been assaulted by BS Man, which would make her even more cautious!); possibly she senses him draw his knife, as he looms behind her, poised to strike.

In any event, she impulsively changes her mind, turns rapidly around, and heads for the exit, possibly clutching the cachous even tighter, i.e. because she's worried.

Her killer is caught temporarily off guard, and might not be able to even see Stride at this point, on account of the yard being cloaked in darkness. However, he senses what has happened, as Stride brushes past him and, quickly regaining his composure, he follows Stride out, catching her just before the exit, where he grabs her neck, eases her to the ground, and slits her throat (I think it's also been argued that she may have grasped the cachous, after her throat was cut, as as consequences of a cadaveric spasm.)

Feel free to criticize, as I put my helmet on and head quietly to the trenches!

John,

The cashous represent the nature of the attack...sudden and swift. I think that the body position reflects a rear attack, and when coupled with the evidence that the scarf was twisted, its very likely that she was facing the gates with the attacker behind her. Implication there is that the attack would have been initiated when the deceased turned her back to her assailant. Or that the assailant came up behind her unseen.

I think when you assess the body position, the circumstantial evidence such as the cashous and the fact that she appeared untouched after the point she hit the ground, the bruises on her shoulders, mud on only one side of the dress, a scenario where she has her back to the wall with someone poking her in the chest interrogating or threatening her and she suddenly decides to leave this situation via the gates is likely.

People don't factor in that Liz had effectively preened on that night before she went out, then accented her outfit with a flower arrangement, and possibly the cashous. That might explain where her 6d went. That fact suggests to me that she intended to be around men or a man whose opinion of her was important....unlike a docker who could care less about a skirt with lint on it. A Date, or perhaps charwoman work at the club sounds reasonable.

Which leads to a situation where Liz may well have already been waiting in the passage when she meets her assailant. He might have assumed she was soliciting, or spying maybe, and Liz, being a woman who had many years experience dealing with brushing off men when she wasn't working, might have rudely dismissed him. He gets angry, puts her back to the wall to intimidate her and pokes her while telling her off. She fears the situation, gets a dry mouth..takes out cashous and then pushes the man away and starts for the gates. That's as far as she gets,...scarf grabbed from the rear, twists in the direction of the club wall, her body angles obliquely across the path as she loses balance from the pulling and falls back...just after the knife is placed under her throat with his right hand. The weight of her alone on that blade might have been enough to make that cut.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

Astute as ever I see! !

Astute, but not acute, mon ami ;-)

Of course, Stride may have been pushed backwards, but that is not what Schwartz says in his police account , although he does, of course, say that she was pushed back into the passage, !

I did smile when I read that, John.

Another scenario that has been proposed to explain the body position is that Stride was spun around by her killer. However, I consider this unlikely. Thus, you may be aware that there is an excellent photograph of the entrance to Dutfield's Yard in Evans and Rumbelow's book, Scotland Yard Investigates, 2006, p100.

Okay, this is what I think might have happened. Stride is soliciting by the entrance to Dutfield's Yard. Her killer approaches and, after agreeing a price, they complete the transaction. Stride then takes out the cachous, to freshen her breath, before entering the Yard, her killer following directly behind her.

However, her killer doesn't strike immediately-he wants to get further into the Yard, i e. away from the gate where he might be interrupted by a passer by (this would be all the more the case if he needed time to mutilate the body.)

Nonetheless, at some point Stride senses danger: maybe it's just intuition; perhaps there's just something about the man that makes her feel uncomfortable (and she would, no doubt, be mindful of the Ripper scare and, who knows, might just have been assaulted by BS Man, which would make her even more cautious!); possibly she senses him draw his knife, as he looms behind her, poised to strike.

In any event, she impulsively changes her mind, turns rapidly around, and heads for the exit, possibly clutching the cachous even tighter, i.e. because she's worried.

Her killer is caught temporarily off guard, and might not be able to even see Stride at this point, on account of the yard being cloaked in darkness. However, he senses what has happened, as Stride brushes past him and, quickly regaining his composure, he follows Stride out, catching her just before the exit, where he grabs her neck, eases her to the ground, and slits her throat (I think it's also been argued that she may have grasped the cachous, after her throat was cut, as as consequences of a cadaveric spasm.)!

Feel free to criticize, as I put my helmet on and head quietly to the trenches!

No, you`ve probably nailed it there, John.
Feel free to climb out of the trench and come and play footy in no-man`s land.