Schwartz v. Lawende

[Bridewell]

Hi Syrius
and welcome.

IMHO they are describing the same man. the clincher for me is that they both describe a man wearing a peaked cap. as did marshal, possibly PC smith and the anon description in the press of a sighting in Church st. at approx. the time inbetween the Berner street and Mitre square murders.

I believe they all are probably describing the same man.

The peaked cap also made an impression on Abberline. see my sig below.

That's pretty much my take on it too, Abby. Like you, I don't think we should hastily dismiss the man seen on Church Street.

[Bridewell]

Could the killer have had a red scarf in his pocket and put it on after the first murder of the double event?

Now that's a very good question, Sirius. Why would a killer carry a red scarf? To wipe his hands on perhaps as it would not be easy to make out bloodstains on a piece of red cloth? That would explain why the same man might be wearing a red neck scarf for the second killing which was not evident during the first.

[Abby Normal]

Now that's a very good question, Sirius. Why would a killer carry a red scarf? To wipe his hands on perhaps as it would not be easy to make out bloodstains on a piece of red cloth? That would explain why the same man might be wearing a red neck scarf for the second killing which was not evident during the first.

yes it is now that I think of it. perhaps to carry internal organs in?

I doubt he would have used it to wipe blood and then put it around his neck after, but who knows?
maybe the berner street witnesses just missed it, or maybe he put it on after because he was cold, or stride scratched his neck???

and thanks for the previous post. I think the peaked cap gets downplayed/overlooked a lot on here. as does the church street sighting.

[Michael W Richards]

Fanny was at her door 'on and off' in one report

In the other she was at her door 'No more than ten minutes'

So this claim is miss-leading

Gouldstein places her at the door shortly before 1 am... But gives no exact time

Fanny goes inside and hears the pony and cart pass her door and it only takes seconds for the horse and cart to pass down Berner street so its possible Deimschutz discovers the body at 1 am.

Fanny then hears the commotion which could be at any point after 1 am

Yours Jeff

Quoted from Fanny Mortimer, OCT 1st, Evening news;

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband".

According to the above the cart and horse were heard around 1:04. Again, the timings from that point terminating at 1:16, for Blackwell and his watch check, do not explain adequately how a discovery at 1:04 might lead to Blackwells presence at 1:16.

[Michael W Richards]

Now that's a very good question, Sirius. Why would a killer carry a red scarf? To wipe his hands on perhaps as it would not be easy to make out bloodstains on a piece of red cloth? That would explain why the same man might be wearing a red neck scarf for the second killing which was not evident during the first.

Why take the apron section then?

[John G]

Quoted from Fanny Mortimer, OCT 1st, Evening news;

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband".

According to the above the cart and horse were heard around 1:04. Again, the timings from that point terminating at 1:16, for Blackwell and his watch check, do not explain adequately how a discovery at 1:04 might lead to Blackwells presence at 1:16.

I'm not sure I understand the logic of the 1:04 time. Thus, she goes to the street door at around 12:45, remained there for 10 minutes, which takes us to 12:55. She then locked the door and prepared to retire for bed so, say, that took a minute, taking us to 12:56. Then about four minutes later she hears the pony and cart, taking us to 1:00am, which is exactly the time Louis says that he arrived.

[Abby Normal]

Why take the apron section then?

probably to "sign" the graffiti as being from the killer of Eddowes.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure I understand the logic of the 1:04 time. Thus, she goes to the street door at around 12:45, remained there for 10 minutes, which takes us to 12:55. She then locked the door and prepared to retire for bed so, say, that took a minute, taking us to 12:56. Then about four minutes later she hears the pony and cart, taking us to 1:00am, which is exactly the time Louis says that he arrived.

Since she sees Goldstein at 12:55-56, that doesn't work does it?

[Michael W Richards]

probably to "sign" the graffiti as being from the killer of Eddowes.

More likely it was to carry the organs, it wasn't to clean feces off his hands, (because of the 2 foot colon section he places between her arm and body), because there wasn't much feces on it.

[John G]

Since she sees Goldstein at 12:55-56, that doesn't work does it?

It does if she saw Goldstein at 12:55, just as she was about to go inside.

[Michael W Richards]

It does if she saw Goldstein at 12:55, just as she was about to go inside.

I don't know why you are so adamant about arguing with what Fanny said..."I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock"....and "If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him".

So....for the last time, Fanny was at her door almost the entire half hour, and she was at her door for the last 10 minutes of the hour during which she sees Leon at around 12:55-56. NO-ONE arrives at 1am....like Louis claims.

[Abby Normal]

More likely it was to carry the organs, it wasn't to clean feces off his hands, (because of the 2 foot colon section he places between her arm and body), because there wasn't much feces on it.

yeah that's a possibility. But why dump the apron though before he gets back to his bolt hole? that means he would have to take the organs out and carry them in something else, the whole reason why he cut the apron off in the first place.

Unless of course you think he lived in the Wentworth building?

[Michael W Richards]

yeah that's a possibility. But why dump the apron though before he gets back to his bolt hole? that means he would have to take the organs out and carry them in something else, the whole reason why he cut the apron off in the first place.

Unless of course you think he lived in the Wentworth building?

Actually I believe PC Long when he says the apron "was not there" when he passed by around 2:20am, so the killer had ample time to drop the organs off and then head out with the apron to place it at the Model Homes. Why place it where almost 100% of the residents were Jewish immigrants? That's where I believe the writing comes into play.

I do not see the location of the apron indicating the direct path home.

[John G]

I don't know why you are so adamant about arguing with what Fanny said..."I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock"....and "If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him".

So....for the last time, Fanny was at her door almost the entire half hour, and she was at her door for the last 10 minutes of the hour during which she sees Leon at around 12:55-56. NO-ONE arrives at 1am....like Louis claims.

Well for someone who was supposedly there for the virtually the full half hour, between 12:30 and 1:00, she missed seeing an awful lot of people: Charles Letchford, PC Smith, Morris Eagle returning to the club, Joseph Lave, Liz Stride, Liz Stride's killer...

[c.d.]

We don't know what "nearly the whole time" means other than that she was not at her door the entire time.

c.d.