Packer and Schwartz

[John G]

ahh.. it all can be explained by the invisible man hiding in the shadows.
But wait-is he the witness or the killer? or both?

What a load of garbage.

Lets just start going with fairy tails to explain things then. Its so much more interesting than the boring facts- that Stride was with the same man wearing a peaked cap seen by several witnesses, including the man who attacked her shortly before her body was discovered. The same man seen with Eddowes before her body was discovered.

The invisible man is so much more realistic(sarcasm) than the simple fact, proven time and again by forensic experts, that people can hold onto objects through extreme violence and death.

sorry for the interruption. Please carry on.

But isn't it funny how many witnesses noticed the peak cap, but not Stride wearing a flower?

[John G]

Hello Jeff.

"the Cachous are always a problem what ever theory you put forward."

Well, not always. In EACH trial, my wife held on. No problem. (See video.)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Excellent re-enactment on the video, a scenario that clearly makes perfect sense.

[curious4]

Hello Jeff,

But this is surely completely re-writing Schwartz's evidence. He does mention Stride being propelled to the floor with the scarf, if that's what you're implying, or her left arm being pulled up behind her back, hard or otherwise. Moreover, BS man would have to release the scarf, as Stride was thrown to the ground, meaning that she would drop/spill the cachous as she attempted to break her fall.

Reinterpreting a scream as a choking sound also amounts to re-writing the evidence. In fact, I don't see how you could possibly mistake two very different, but distinct, sounds.

I accept the silk is strong, but the scarf was relatively short. Therefore, how would BS man possibly get enough purchase as he was dragging her along the ground, especially as the scarf was round her neck? I mean, for one thing the scarf would probably start slipping and move up the chin, and possibly come away from the body altogether, i.e. as the head was forced back. Why were there no ligature marks or knot impressions on the neck? Are there any examples in recorded human history of someone being successfully dragged in such a manner?

If Stride was being dragged along the ground, why was there no damage to the dress? Why no drag marks to the body? Why no evidence of bruising, grazing, or any damage to the skin whatsoever? Why no friction burns? This is surely a physical impossibility.

Okay, I know it had been raining, but Stride wouldn't have been dragged over sheet ice. In fact, I would have thought it would take something akin to Noah's flood to provide sufficient lubrication!

I'm sorry, but a far simpler solution is that Stride was killed by PC Smith's suspect, and Schwartz, who as a Hungarian Jewish immigrant would be about the last person you would expect to get involved, either made the whole story up, or what he witnessed happened much earlier than he thought, and he misidentified Stride.

Hello John and all,

Writing from my sickbed, flu, temp was 103F plus, so don't expect too much clarity of thought!

I don't think it says anywhere that Liz fell headlong to the ground. I imagine she was pushed/pulled down into a sitting position, thus holding on to the cachous. She "cried out" three times etc, perhaps something along the lines of "Jack" (or perhaps Yack, as she was Swedish), "what are you doing?", "Stop it!". He then grasps the scarf and pulls tight (as in garrotting) and she very quickly loses consciousness (as happens in this kind of attack) and her hands clenched (ditto). He then puts his hands under her arms and pulls her behind the door or picks her up and carries her there. Continues with throat slashing but is disturbed by Diemschutz.

I do believe that her attacker was Schwarz's man. The times are not a hundred per cent accurate and it is just too convenient that Jack was waiting in the wings.

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Hello John and all,

Writing from my sickbed, flu, temp was 103F plus, so don't expect too much clarity of thought!

I don't think it says anywhere that Liz fell headlong to the ground. I imagine she was pushed/pulled down into a sitting position, thus holding on to the cachous. She "cried out" three times etc, perhaps something along the lines of "Jack" (or perhaps Yack, as she was Swedish), "what are you doing?", "Stop it!". He then grasps the scarf and pulls tight (as in garrotting) and she very quickly loses consciousness (as happens in this kind of attack) and her hands clenched (ditto). He then puts his hands under her arms and pulls her behind the door or picks her up and carries her there. Continues with throat slashing but is disturbed by Diemschutz.

I do believe that her attacker was Schwarz's man. The times are not a hundred per cent accurate and it is just too convenient that Jack was waiting in the wings.

Best wishes
C4

Hi C4,

The police account does says that "he threw her down on the footway", i.e. not pushed or pulled. In any event, her natural instinct would still have been to throw out her arms, spreading her fingers to break the fall. If she was garroted, why no ligature marks? Why no evidence of strangulation? If her throat was cut whilst on the pavement, why no blood in this area? If there was constriction or violent compression of the neck during life there should've been bruising or ecchymoses about the marks on the neck. Why were they entirely abscent? See http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...-strangulation

However, I agree that her killer was probably not "waiting in the wings." I think it more likely Stride was killed by PC Smit's suspect, and either Schwartz's evidence was fabricated, or he witnessed a different assault, possibly a domestic squabble involving a different victim, at an earlier time.

By the way, hope you quickly recover from the flu!

[Wickerman]

OK I get the snario You and Karsten are forwarding

I still don't know why Morris Eagle missed the couple but if they are deliberately trying to avoid being seen and he's in a hurry may be its possible...

Smith saw Stride and the man between 12:30-12:35, Eagle passed through the yard "about 12:40", so pretty close.
It isn't necessary to believe that Stride & her client were in the yard as Eagle passed through. He doesn't recall people in the street, and neither does PC Smith recall others about.

At "about 12:40" Stride and the man could still have been on the opposite side of Berner St., only crossing over behind Eagle as he walked through the gates.
Maybe they followed him to the side door to listen to the music?

Alternately, Stride and the client could just as easily have gone to the far end of the yard by the time Eagle came through the gates "about 12:40", he just didn't see anyone so far down in the darkness.

I don't see the appearance of Eagle being a complication in either scenario.

But why does Stride start an argument with BSM, when she has a client in the Ally, a rather dangerous client at that...

Both the press account and the police account say that BS-man spoke to Stride first, then he either pushed her back (press account), or pulled her forward (police account), but either way, he assaulted her first with no audible response by Stride until the assault.
Maybe BS-man recognised her for what she was, or perhaps she had rejected him earlier, but now sees that she has taken up with another man? Either way he becomes annoyed.

It just all seems to rely on lots of what if's, when if the man seen by Smith is rejected by Stride... goes with another man, seen by Brown, she rejects him also and heads back to Dutfield where she see's the first rejection and says no again

He BSM kills her almost instantly and walks off

The two immediate problems I see with that Jeff, is first, Brown could not identify the woman having a flower on her breast.
Second, the time Brown estimates seeing this couple is the same time that Schwartz claimed to see BS-man assault Stride at the yard.

Given there was another couple on the corner of Fairclough & Berner just prior to when Brown saw his couple, there is a strong possibility that he saw a different couple.

[curious4]

Hi C4,

The police account does says that "he threw her down on the footway", i.e. not pushed or pulled. In any event, her natural instinct would still have been to throw out her arms, spreading her fingers to break the fall. If she was garroted, why no ligature marks? Why no evidence of strangulation? If her throat was cut whilst on the pavement, why no blood in this area? If there was constriction or violent compression of the neck during life there should've been bruising or ecchymoses about the marks on the neck. Why were they entirely abscent? See http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...-strangulation

However, I agree that her killer was probably not "waiting in the wings." I think it more likely Stride was killed by PC Smit's suspect, and either Schwartz's evidence was fabricated, or he witnessed a different assault, possibly a domestic squabble involving a different victim, at an earlier time.

By the way, hope you quickly recover from the flu!

Hello John

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/ligature-strangulation

According to my favourite pathologist the ligature mark may be absent if a soft ligature were used. Also the throat cutting may have disguised it to a certain extent.

Don't think I said her throat was cut on the pavement but that he dragged her or carried her into the yard.

Thanks for the good wishes!

C4

[curious4]

Hello John

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/ligature-strangulation

According to my favourite pathologist the ligature mark may be absent if a soft ligature were used. Also the throat cutting may have disguised it to a certain extent.

Don't think I said her throat was cut on the pavement but that he dragged her or carried her into the yard.

Thanks for the good wishes!

C4

Hello John

See now that my favourite pathologist is also yours, but if you read a bit lower down.

C4

[Abby Normal]

But isn't it funny how many witnesses noticed the peak cap, but not Stride wearing a flower?

no.
the flower is smaller and on the chest harder to see than a hat large, on the head that can be seen from any angle.

[Abby Normal]

Hello John and all,

Writing from my sickbed, flu, temp was 103F plus, so don't expect too much clarity of thought!

I don't think it says anywhere that Liz fell headlong to the ground. I imagine she was pushed/pulled down into a sitting position, thus holding on to the cachous. She "cried out" three times etc, perhaps something along the lines of "Jack" (or perhaps Yack, as she was Swedish), "what are you doing?", "Stop it!". He then grasps the scarf and pulls tight (as in garrotting) and she very quickly loses consciousness (as happens in this kind of attack) and her hands clenched (ditto). He then puts his hands under her arms and pulls her behind the door or picks her up and carries her there. Continues with throat slashing but is disturbed by Diemschutz.

I do believe that her attacker was Schwarz's man. The times are not a hundred per cent accurate and it is just too convenient that Jack was waiting in the wings.

Best wishes
C4

much clearer than most!
hope your feeling better.

[curious4]

much clearer than most!
hope your feeling better.

Thank you Abby!

[Wickerman]

Question.....of the people who claim they saw a live Liz Stride between 12:30 and 1am, who claimed to have seen her corsage...for the momentary lack of a better word?

If Israel Schwartz lied, then its possible only PC Smith saw Liz Stride on the street around 12:35, and no-one saw her outside of that passageway after that. Which would invite the line of questions that might actually solve this riddle. If she is in the passage, then what is she doing there?

Hi Michael.
Stride is with the Smith suspect?

Why is she holding cashous?

At that moment, she isn't.

Why does she have a corsage?

She had it earlier at the Bricklayers Arms, whether she found it, bought it, or was given it, is anybody's guess.

Why did she feel a need to lint brush her skirt before going out?

Her usual attempt at looking presentable?

Why did she leave the fabric swatch with the female lodger?

She intended to return?
(Leaving valuables in her room might only get stolen)

Where was she planning to bed down that night?

Her own room?

Does her recent work "among the jews" have some connection to her actions and attire?

No?

Why doesnt Morris Eagle see a woman either on the street or in the passageway at 12:40?

What Eagle said was:
"I dare say I did, but I do not remember them."
Which is not the same as saying he saw no woman.

Does the fact that she is single again have any bearing on her situation that night?

She might not have been out had she not been single?

These answers might lead to the creation of far more probable and supportable theories about who killed Liz Stride and why than are at present embraced by many.

How so?

Would it be true to say you already have your own answers to those questions?

[Jeff Leahy]

The two immediate problems I see with that Jeff, is first, Brown could not identify the woman having a flower on her breast.

I think that I demonstrated clearly that Brown could NOT have seen the flower from his POV.... From the moment he left the shop to passing the couple his line of sight could never have seen the flower as the man stood between him and the flower

Second, the time Brown estimates seeing this couple is the same time that Schwartz claimed to see BS-man assault Stride at the yard.

Again my reconstruction clearly deals with this point... Brown leaves the shop at the same time Schwartx turns into Berner street... It takes brown 2-3 secs to cross the road... It takes Schwartz 1-2 minutes to walk down to Durfield yard...thats what me reconstruction demonstrates

Given there was another couple on the corner of Fairclough & Berner just prior to when Brown saw his couple, there is a strong possibility that he saw a different couple.

Yes, this is an argument raised by Paul Begg

I have simply pointed out that Brown could not have seen a flower from his POV

and that there was plenty of time for Stride to leave the man described by Brown

Get to Dutfeild Yard and meet BSM

and that would leave someone where stride left him and where Schwartz claimed he was...the pipeman?

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

ahh.. it all can be explained by the invisible man hiding in the shadows.
But wait-is he the witness or the killer? or both?

What a load of garbage.

Lets just start going with fairy tails to explain things then. Its so much more interesting than the boring facts- that Stride was with the same man wearing a peaked cap seen by several witnesses, including the man who attacked her shortly before her body was discovered. The same man seen with Eddowes before her body was discovered.

The invisible man is so much more realistic(sarcasm) than the simple fact, proven time and again by forensic experts, that people can hold onto objects through extreme violence and death.

sorry for the interruption. Please carry on.

Hello Abby,

This "fairy tale" (as you put it) of another killer besides the B.S. man was considered a possibility by Swanson.

As for people holding on to things in death, as has been stated over and over in these Stride threads, the cachous argument relates to Stride holding on to the cachous after being thrown to the ground as witnessed by Schwartz. It also relates to her holding out her hands to push herself upright and to her holding on to them if she attempted to fight off the B.S. man if he was dragging her to her death. The argument DOES NOT relate to her holding on to them in death so any evidence from forensic scientists in that regard is moot.

c.d.

[c.d.]

And before people start telling their experiences of holding on to something during a fall, we need to keep in mind that these were little mints wrapped in tissue paper. Now that is different from say a woman falling and holding on to her purse since the purse itself absorbs the blow and does not break. The same if someone were holding a beer can. That is not going to break apart. But the cachous in the paper were very flimsy and could be scattered quite easily. So it is definitely not a case of one size fits all.

c.d.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Dutfeild Yard slightly higher angle... Please note these images are copyright

But might be useful to conversation

THis is great. Thank you.