Possible explanation for Maxwell Discrepency?

[SirJohnFalstaff]

She was also known for not wearing a hat, and I wondered if the reason she didn't wear hats was to make herself appear shorter, because many of the men in the area weren't much taller than 5'7.

Anyway, her being notorious for not wearing a hat I think strikes a blow to the "killer wore her clothes." .

I got the impression that "not wearing a hat" was some kind of indication that she is a prostitute looking for a customer at the time.


Also, didn't MJK work in a west end brothel months before, maybe before she went to France?

[Rosella]

Maybe Mary only had one hat or bonnet and saved that for best. As a young and supposedly pretty woman she may have wanted to show off her hair.

The supposition is that in Victorian and Edwardian times everyone male and female always had headgear on when they went outdoors (or at least a shawl over the head for working class women.)

However, there are some photos around showing East End women sitting in the streets gossiping with each other wearing black clothing, aprons and no hats. So Mary not wearing a hat may have just been necessity or choice.

[Wickerman]

I got the impression that "not wearing a hat" was some kind of indication that she is a prostitute looking for a customer at the time.

That was indeed the tradition, though it applied more to younger women than the older ones.
Earlier in the evening Kelly had been wearing a bonnet, but at that time she was out with her friend Maria Harvey, so it might be assumed she did not wish to be seen as "available" at that time.

[DJA]

Also, didn't MJK work in a west end brothel months before, maybe before she went to France?

A gay house.

[curious4]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zUcJKuOV-IU

No comment!

C4

[spyglass]

Hi,
Maxwell said that she had known Kelly for about six months, so I doubt if she would have got her mixed up with other women coming and going.
Then there is Maurice Lewis who also claimed to see her, and if my memory serves me right , didn't the Times report a third un-named witness who corroboratingMaxwell story?
I really can't believe that they got it wrong.

Regards.

[John G]

Yes, but by her own testimony she had only spoken to Kelly once or twice during this period, which implies that she seriously exaggerated how well she knew, and was able to recognize, the victim. In fact, even the coroner questioned why they would be on first name terms- Maxwell claimed that Kelly referred to her as Carrie-based upon such a casual acquaintance.

Maurice Lewis claimed that he saw Kelly in the Ringers (Britannia), at 10:00am, and that she was drinking with some other people. This is extraordinary considering no one else recalled seeing her in the pub at that time, let alone conversing with her. Therefore, if Lewis is correct we must surely be dealing with a major conspiracy/cover-up.

[spyglass]

Yes, but by her own testimony she had only spoken to Kelly once or twice during this period, which implies that she seriously exaggerated how well she knew, and was able to recognize, the victim. In fact, even the coroner questioned why they would be on first name terms- Maxwell claimed that Kelly referred to her as Carrie-based upon such a casual acquaintance.

Maurice Lewis claimed that he saw Kelly in the Ringers (Britannia), at 10:00am, and that she was drinking with some other people. This is extraordinary considering no one else recalled seeing her in the pub at that time, let alone conversing with her. Therefore, if Lewis is correct we must surely be dealing with a major conspiracy/cover-up.

Hi John,
Ha!...you said it.

[John G]

Hi John,
Ha!...you said it.

Hi Spyglass,

Well, based on what happened with the latter Austin murder, also in Dorset Street and involving mutilations, I'm certainly not ruling out a conspiracy! By the way, a transcript of the inquest of that case is available on this site. It's frankly hillarious, as a number of witnesses clearly lied, with the inquest at times virtually degenerating into farce!

[spyglass]

Hi Spyglass,

Well, based on what happened with the latter Austin murder, also in Dorset Street and involving mutilations, I'm certainly not ruling out a conspiracy! By the way, a transcript of the inquest of that case is available on this site. It's frankly hillarious, as a number of witnesses clearly lied, with the inquest at times virtually degenerating into farce!

Hi JohnG
I know the word " conspiracy " is often frowned upon on here, however conspiracy 's at high levels do happen, Hillsborough to name a recent one.
But in all aspects of the this case, and with so many red herrings thrown about, at least the phrase "cover up " holds true to me.

Regards.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

A gay house.

"According to Joseph Barnett, on arriving in London, Kelly went to work in a high class brothel in the West End. She says that during this time she frequently rode in a carriage and accompanied one gentleman to Paris, which she didn't like and she returned."

[DJA]

"Yes. She was in a gay house in the West-end, but in what part she did not say".....Joseph Barnett at the Inquest.

[Wickerman]

"Yes. She was in a gay house in the West-end, but in what part she did not say".....Joseph Barnett at the Inquest.

If I remember correctly, research done by Neil Shelden of the Morgenstern's who Kelly stayed with in Breezers Hill indicated they came from Fulham or Chelsea, that general area.
One of the brothers owned a house back there of some dubious repute?

For some reason my Kindle copy refuses to open so I can't check, sorry.

[Robert St Devil]

Maurice Lewis claimed that he saw Kelly in the Ringers (Britannia), at 10:00am, and that she was drinking with some other people. This is extraordinary considering no one else recalled seeing her in the pub at that timelet alone conversing with her. Therefore, if Lewis is correct we must surely be dealing with a major conspiracy/cover-up.

I am still waiting for anyone from the pub recalling anything in this case at all. Where are the pubfolk statements - a bartender, waitress, bouncer,... You would think that Chapman and Kelly were 'known' or 'recognized'? Or one that could confirm whether Kelly was in the bar that morning with Barnett? or serving Elizabeth Stride at the Bricklayers? Or Eddowes during the afternoon? Or martha Tabram and mary conely since they visit many pubs with these two men?

It makes it seem filtered.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

"Yes. She was in a gay house in the West-end, but in what part she did not say".....Joseph Barnett at the Inquest.

what's the difference? Dictionary says gay house was a term used to define a brothel.