The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Sam Flynn]

No. God changed Jacob's name to Israel. He did not make that decision himself.

Perhaps God did the same favour for our flamboyant Hungarian friend, Chava - it'd certainly be difficult to disprove it if He had And there was I thinking that the book of Genesis would be the ultimate precedent...

I take your point, however.

[Robert]

Well, I find this all terribly confusing - you've got God himself changing his name from Jehovah to Jesus to Allah to Eric Clapton. Let's just call him Bert and have done with it.

[Chava]

I think it's entirely likely that the interpreter was speaking Yiddish and the newspaper reporter assumed it was Hungarian because Schwartz himself was Hungarian.

As for the name, one thing that comes up all the time in the UK as well as the US is the Immigration Officer effect. These people are coming in off the boat. Their papers may be written in Cyrillic. A lot of their other documentation--marriage contracts etc--will be written in Hebrew. Even the Jews from Central Europe will be speaking German or whatever and don't speak English, and their papers will be in funny languages as well. So the immigration officer asks their name and they try and tell him and he tries to write it down. He may have already learned how to write 'Schwartz', but the guy is trying to tell him that his name is 'Schatz' or 'Schultz'. Doesn't matter. The officer is gonna write down 'Schwartz' and have done with it. Our boy Israel Schultz now has 'Israel Schwartz' written on his documents. Which he shows the police when they interview him. But the neighbours know him as Izzie Schultz and that's the name he does business under.

I'm not saying our boy Izzie definitely isn't called 'Schwartz'. I'm just saying that might be a reason why you guys can't find him...

[dave]

So:

1. Therfore, there is no compelling Israel that Israel Schwartz suddenly changed his name to Jacob, let alone John!

2. There is no compelling evidence at all that he hailed from Hungary.

3. Is therfore it likely that the likelhood that Israel Schwartz is the same Israel Schwartz referred to in the 1891 and 1901 census who resided first at 22, Ellen Street, and then 10 years later at 21 Jubilee Street? These seem to be one and the the same person, based on the family info recorded.

[Chava]

I think that's entirely likely Dave!

In any case I've just read the whole thread and some of it is hilarious. Especially the rather broad generalizations coming from Gareth. It's true there were divisions in the Jewish community at that time and still today. These divisions were based in spats between the various Chassidic sects. So a Jew who was a Satmar Chassid might have a beef with a Jew who is a Ger Chassid. But Polish Jews and Russian Jews and Hungarian Jews did not, necessarily, look down on each other as groups. I don't think they 'despised' each other. Especially if they were living in an immigrant environment where the general indigenous population was so different and had such different customs and language.

[perrymason]

Hello all,

The spelling of my name is Hebraic, as the Bible's Michaels' are, ....I believe it means "He who will be sceptical of gifts that are forced upon him"...or..."The King who dislikes getting crowned",.... something like that.

My real point was going to be, a question... does anyone know what percentage of the Hungarian population at that time period were Jewish? Ill see if I can find some data on that.

Cheers all.

[Sam Flynn]

I think that's entirely likely Dave!

In any case I've just read the whole thread and some of it is hilarious. Especially the rather broad generalizations coming from Gareth.

Broad research, if you don't mind, Chava - and a generalisation based on biblical sources, albeit a rationalist's reading of them.

When dealing with the vagaries of the census and the demonstrable "tradition" of name-changing among immigrants, it might pay to follow up whatever leads that might sensibly arise.

One has the best intentions, and tries to be helpful...

[Chava]

Gareth, that's ok. But my best advice is: don't confuse what goes on in the bible with what goes on in the average Jew's house in 1888 or now... We may pay a lot of attention to the first 5 books of the Old Testament, but we don't try and recreate events therein!

[DVV]

Hi Sam,
Coup de pied à joueur à terre = 1 an de suspension au minimum.
On ne verrait pas ça chez les Ospreys.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,
Coup de pied à joueur à terre = 1 an de suspension au minimum.
On ne verrait pas ça chez les Ospreys.

C'est vrai, David - mais tout fait bien maintenant avec mes dents!

Note: Dave is responding to an earlier version (since edited) of my note to Chava, where I sulkily suggested that I felt as if I'd been kicked in the teeth. However, this cannot be true because I had a dental check-up this PM, and all was fine. It must have been paranoia brought on by a bad week at work

[Chava]

Gareth, I'd never kick you in the teeth! But if you felt that I did, I apologize completely!

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth, I'd never kick you in the teeth! But if you felt that I did, I apologize completely!

Thanks, Chava - but I know you're a good egg, which is why I removed that whinge from my post tout de suite!

[Robert]

"If you are ever kicked in the teeth, may it be by a one-legged man. At least you will have a laugh."
(Old Arab saying)

[DVV]

Oh Robert,
I'm just picturing a barefoot one-legged Beduin kicking me in the teeth...
Not sure Captain Burton hasn't experienced this...
Have to check.

Amitiés,
David

[Chris]

So:

1. Therfore, there is no compelling Israel that Israel Schwartz suddenly changed his name to Jacob, let alone John!

2. There is no compelling evidence at all that he hailed from Hungary.

3. Is therfore it likely that the likelhood that Israel Schwartz is the same Israel Schwartz referred to in the 1891 and 1901 census who resided first at 22, Ellen* Street, and then 10 years later at 21 Jubilee Street? These seem to be one and the the same person, based on the family info recorded.

[* It was 22 Samuel Street in the 1891 census; 22 Ellen Street was the address of Israel Schwartz the witness.]

I don't think there can be any doubt that these two census entries relate to the same man (see Gavin Bromley's dissertation, "Mrs Kuer's Lodger" for further information, including details from the birth certificates of Louis, Daniel and Abraham - http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kuer.html ). Moreover, this is the only Israel Schwartz in ancestry.com's index of the 1891 census for the whole of England and Wales, and we know that in late 1890 and early 1891 he was living in Brunswick Street, only about 100 yards from the site of the murder, and a similar distance from the address of Israel Schwartz the witness recorded in Swanson's report.

So I think that despite the discrepancy between the Star reports that say the witness was Hungarian and the census records that say he was born in Poland/Russia, there has to be a strong presumption that this is the right Israel Schwartz.

I have been trying to follow up on the research by Gavin and others, and here's a list of this Israel Schwartz's addresses so far:
8 December 1890 - 16 Brunswick Street - admission of daughter Esther to infants' section of Berner Street School.
3 March 1891 - 19 Brunswick Street - birth of son Louis
5 April-12 May 1891 - 22 Samuel Street - census and admission of daughter "Rose" to girls' section of Berner Street School.
12 November 1894-5 November 1895 - 13 Queen Street (off Old Montague Street) - admission of daughter Esther to Jews' Free School; birth of son Daniel.
31 August 1896-6 June 1898 - 143 Back Church Lane - admission of son Louis to the infants' section of Berner Street School; birth of son Judah (a.k.a. Edward).
31 March 1901 - 21 Jubilee Street - census.
29 May-4 July 1901 - 1 John Street, St Georges in the East - birth of son Abraham.