The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Chris]

Could you inform me where the 22 Ellen Street address comes from. Is it documented somewhere or does it come a newspaper report, or other source. I presume it may be the address on the day that he reported what he saw....that is, September 30th 1888? From my limited reading of this whole story, I believe he was either about to move, or may have just moved the previous day, that is friday, and not on the Sabbath Saturday I presume.

In other words, what does the Ellen St. address refer to? Is it he one he had just moved from or was abou to move to, if you see what I mean?

I think the sole source of the Ellen Street address is the report prepared by Donald Swanson for the Home Office on 19 October, in which (as Simon has posted) he spells the name of the street as "Helen". (The relevant extract of this report is included here - http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/schwartz.html )

I think that - as you say - this must be Schwartz's address at the time of his statement to the police, which was late on the afternoon of Sunday 30 September according to the Star report.

The information about the move comes from the same report, which says:
"It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated ..."

And a bit further on it says that after witnessing the incident "He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings", so it seems that the move had taken place.

So if that's all correct his wife moved in his absence on the Saturday, and 22 Ellen Street was the new address. But again, most of this hinges on the accuracy of the Star report, and it's possible that there could have been a misunderstanding in translation.

It strikes me there might actually be some mileage in the idea that the Star reporter misunderstood this too, and that Ellen Street was the address of the old lodgings. According to the map in Gavin Bromley's dissertation, 22 Ellen Street is virtually at the end of Berner Street, and some distance from Back Church Lane, so that could reasonably be described as "lodgings in Berner-street". And if the new lodgings were in or near the southern part of Back Church Lane, then that would be consistent with Schwartz running west along Fairclough Street (as indicated by one press report) and down Back Church Lane "so far as the railway arch" (Swanson's report). It would also get round the difficulty of his wife apparently having moved house on the Sabbath.

Also...what ever hapened to the original notes and statements taken from him. Do we know the identity of his interpreter? Obviously there must be a lot of conspiracy theories produced by the apparant disappearance, etc of his and other files on the case. The lack of real hard evidence has obviously led to a lot of wild and unfounded, unsupported speculation, some of it probably contributed to by retired top CID policemen themselves, eg, Sir Robert Anderson; and Donald Swanson I believe. It's an industry that sells copy..in all forms.

Unfortunately Swanson's report is pretty much all we have by way of official documentation, though there is some further correspondence concerning the significance of the word "Lipski" (which adds the detail that "Schwartz has a
strong jewish appearance"). Beyond that there is the detailed report in the Star (also transcribed here - http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/schwartz.html ) and a couple of other brief press reports that don't really add anything except the detail about Schwartz running along Fairclough Street (either westwards or eastwards).

By the way, does Johnny Depp's From Hell have an Israel Schwartz character?

I'll have to defer to the film experts on that, but I can't see one listed at www.imdb.com.

[dave]

Simon,


Thanks very much for that. Can you give us the web address so I can see more of that interesting letter/record/etc.?

I see he has inadvertently inserted an H...producing "Helen" Or maybe he was simply 'ard of 'earin'? Was he the one responsible for recording that Schwartz - or more likely based on what his interpreter was saying - was "Hungarian", when we all know he (Schwartz or his interpretor) was simply saying in broken English mixed with Yiddish that he was hungry?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Dave,

Here's Swanson at his sparkling best, getting the details wrong in his 19th October 1888 report—



Regards,

Simon

[dave]

Chris,

Yes, you are quite right, my mistake...his 1891 census address was indeed 22Samuel Street.

Could you inform me where the 22 Ellen Street address comes from. Is it documented somewhere or does it come a newspaper report, or other source. I presume it may be the address on the day that he reported what he saw....that is, September 30th 1888? From my limited reading of this whole story, I believe he was either about to move, or may have just moved the previous day, that is friday, and not on the Sabbath Saturday I presume.

In other words, what does the Ellen St. address refer to? Is it he one he had just moved from or was abou to move to, if you see what I mean?

Also...what ever hapened to the original notes and statements taken from him. Do we know the identity of his interpreter? Obviously there must be a lot of conspiracy theories produced by the apparant disappearance, etc of his and other files on the case. The lack of real hard evidence has obviously led to a lot of wild and unfounded, unsupported speculation, some of it probably contributed to by retired top CID policemen themselves, eg, Sir Robert Anderson; and Donald Swanson I believe. It's an industry that sells copy..in all forms.

By the way, does Johnny Depp's From Hell have an Israel Schwartz character?

[Chris]

So:

1. Therfore, there is no compelling Israel that Israel Schwartz suddenly changed his name to Jacob, let alone John!

2. There is no compelling evidence at all that he hailed from Hungary.

3. Is therfore it likely that the likelhood that Israel Schwartz is the same Israel Schwartz referred to in the 1891 and 1901 census who resided first at 22, Ellen* Street, and then 10 years later at 21 Jubilee Street? These seem to be one and the the same person, based on the family info recorded.

[* It was 22 Samuel Street in the 1891 census; 22 Ellen Street was the address of Israel Schwartz the witness.]

I don't think there can be any doubt that these two census entries relate to the same man (see Gavin Bromley's dissertation, "Mrs Kuer's Lodger" for further information, including details from the birth certificates of Louis, Daniel and Abraham - http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kuer.html ). Moreover, this is the only Israel Schwartz in ancestry.com's index of the 1891 census for the whole of England and Wales, and we know that in late 1890 and early 1891 he was living in Brunswick Street, only about 100 yards from the site of the murder, and a similar distance from the address of Israel Schwartz the witness recorded in Swanson's report.

So I think that despite the discrepancy between the Star reports that say the witness was Hungarian and the census records that say he was born in Poland/Russia, there has to be a strong presumption that this is the right Israel Schwartz.

I have been trying to follow up on the research by Gavin and others, and here's a list of this Israel Schwartz's addresses so far:
8 December 1890 - 16 Brunswick Street - admission of daughter Esther to infants' section of Berner Street School.
3 March 1891 - 19 Brunswick Street - birth of son Louis
5 April-12 May 1891 - 22 Samuel Street - census and admission of daughter "Rose" to girls' section of Berner Street School.
12 November 1894-5 November 1895 - 13 Queen Street (off Old Montague Street) - admission of daughter Esther to Jews' Free School; birth of son Daniel.
31 August 1896-6 June 1898 - 143 Back Church Lane - admission of son Louis to the infants' section of Berner Street School; birth of son Judah (a.k.a. Edward).
31 March 1901 - 21 Jubilee Street - census.
29 May-4 July 1901 - 1 John Street, St Georges in the East - birth of son Abraham.

[DVV]

Oh Robert,
I'm just picturing a barefoot one-legged Beduin kicking me in the teeth...
Not sure Captain Burton hasn't experienced this...
Have to check.

Amitiés,
David

[Robert]

"If you are ever kicked in the teeth, may it be by a one-legged man. At least you will have a laugh."
(Old Arab saying)

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth, I'd never kick you in the teeth! But if you felt that I did, I apologize completely!

Thanks, Chava - but I know you're a good egg, which is why I removed that whinge from my post tout de suite!

[Chava]

Gareth, I'd never kick you in the teeth! But if you felt that I did, I apologize completely!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,
Coup de pied à joueur à terre = 1 an de suspension au minimum.
On ne verrait pas ça chez les Ospreys.

C'est vrai, David - mais tout fait bien maintenant avec mes dents!

Note: Dave is responding to an earlier version (since edited) of my note to Chava, where I sulkily suggested that I felt as if I'd been kicked in the teeth. However, this cannot be true because I had a dental check-up this PM, and all was fine. It must have been paranoia brought on by a bad week at work

[DVV]

Hi Sam,
Coup de pied à joueur à terre = 1 an de suspension au minimum.
On ne verrait pas ça chez les Ospreys.

Amitiés,
David

[Chava]

Gareth, that's ok. But my best advice is: don't confuse what goes on in the bible with what goes on in the average Jew's house in 1888 or now... We may pay a lot of attention to the first 5 books of the Old Testament, but we don't try and recreate events therein!

[Sam Flynn]

I think that's entirely likely Dave!

In any case I've just read the whole thread and some of it is hilarious. Especially the rather broad generalizations coming from Gareth.

Broad research, if you don't mind, Chava - and a generalisation based on biblical sources, albeit a rationalist's reading of them.

When dealing with the vagaries of the census and the demonstrable "tradition" of name-changing among immigrants, it might pay to follow up whatever leads that might sensibly arise.

One has the best intentions, and tries to be helpful...

Hello all,

The spelling of my name is Hebraic, as the Bible's Michaels' are, ....I believe it means "He who will be sceptical of gifts that are forced upon him"...or..."The King who dislikes getting crowned",.... something like that.

My real point was going to be, a question... does anyone know what percentage of the Hungarian population at that time period were Jewish? Ill see if I can find some data on that.

Cheers all.

[Chava]

I think that's entirely likely Dave!

In any case I've just read the whole thread and some of it is hilarious. Especially the rather broad generalizations coming from Gareth. It's true there were divisions in the Jewish community at that time and still today. These divisions were based in spats between the various Chassidic sects. So a Jew who was a Satmar Chassid might have a beef with a Jew who is a Ger Chassid. But Polish Jews and Russian Jews and Hungarian Jews did not, necessarily, look down on each other as groups. I don't think they 'despised' each other. Especially if they were living in an immigrant environment where the general indigenous population was so different and had such different customs and language.