The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Debra A]

PS: The Holborn hairdresser named "J" or "John" Schwarz, born Budapest, is unaffected by this useful discovery, and he remains my favourite candidate for the Berner St witness.

Hi Sam,
Interesting stuff as usual. I started making a list of Hungarians named Schwartz (and variations) when Gavin was writing his Ripperologist article, taken from the census and Jews free school registers (nightmare project as Gavin knows!) I was trying to see if there was a connection between the Hungarian Sarah Schwartz attacked in 1885 in the Backchurch Lane area if I remember rightly? and the witness Israel.
I never did finish the project, but I wonder if the J Schwartz hairdresser at Holborn you identified is the same Jacob Swartz I found in 1881, living in Dean St. Holborn, London City, listed as son of Herris Stenefield, barber....I never did figure that one out either.

There were Hungarians named Schwartz living around Everard St, I thought Sarah or Israel may most likely have a connection to that family but couldn't find one.

[Sam Flynn]

why is it assumed that almost everyone connected with this case used an alibi?

You mean "alias", I think, Joel.

If so, I should point out that we're not talking about aliases in this instance, but mis-spellings in census returns, passenger lists, newspaper reports. We're also talking about Eastern European names in Yiddish/Hebrew, German, Polish or Cyrillic containing letters that had no direct equivalent in the English alphabet - or names that got distorted because the English couldn't pronounce them. Add to that the known and widespread convention among immigrant Jews of anglicising their own names - out of a desire to "blend in", perhaps - and you'll realise what we're up against. You name it - it happens, and very, very frequently.

Oh, and some people actually did use aliases too - probably the most notable in the broad context of Late Victorian Whitechapel being Lipski, LeGrand, Winchevsky, Kłosowski and Flemming.

[joelhall]

why is it assumed that almost everyone connected with this case used an alibi?

[Sam Flynn]

Update

Due to some commendable sleuthing by Chris Phillips, it turns out that the "Jacuba Schwarz" I found in the Hamburg passenger lists wasn't Israel Schwartz after all - not unless he'd had a gender reassignment as he was crossing the North Sea. Turns out to have been a woman, and her travelling companion Malka seems to have been her daughter. Chris kindly pointed me to a fuller index than the one I'd used previously, and - lo and behold! - they were both there. Not Hungarian, either - these two were from Jaroslaw in Galicia (now Poland).

Thanks once again, Chris, for your help and perseverance.

PS: The Holborn hairdresser named "J" or "John" Schwarz, born Budapest, is unaffected by this useful discovery, and he remains my favourite candidate for the Berner St witness.

[evilina]

The Importance of the Census Taker

All of the discussion of the change of name might need to include the census taker. All information was recorded by one person and this could be the source of any name changes.

Point taken Sam, and thanks for that Chris.

Cheers.

[Sam Flynn]

I think Jack was a gentile myself.

How can we portray the brawl in the yard a few months after this incident.....the boiling point between them and police?

Maybe someone knows the answer to this....what percentage of Metropolitan Police were Jewish at this time? And what was the percentage of residents within the East End that were?

Mike - with respect - interesting thought these things might be, they have nothing to do with the subject of this thread, which I'd purposely budded off from a more general discussion in the first place!

I note that Chris has answered some of your questions, though - for which many thanks.

[ChrisGeorge]

Maybe someone knows the answer to this....what percentage of Metropolitan Police were Jewish at this time? And what was the percentage of residents within the East End that were?

My guess is that the numbers would be low in the first, high in the second....leading to perhaps a polarization of core beliefs between the 2.

Best regards.

Hello Michael

I don't have exact numbers as to the number of policemen who were Jewish and the number of Jews in the East End at the time of the murders has to be estimated as well. However, I would guess that the percentage of Jewish policemen in the Met and the City of London Police would would be a single digit number, and probably a low single digit number. At least 100,000 Jews are estimated to have been in the East End by 1902 per the Jewish Encyclopedia while in the period 1871-1901, the population of the London Borough of Tower Hamlets grew from to 511,947 to 597,102 ("East End of London" in Wikipedia), so we might extrapolate that up to 20% of the population of the East End were Jewish in 1888, or one in every five people.

Chris

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chris,

While I admire your curiosity... I also think you are making some broad assumptions, Sam.

Thanks for the kind words. As to the broad assumptions - I really don't think they are, in all honesty. At leat this chap was definitely Hungarian, at a time when the whole of London contained only 350 of his kinsmen - a distinct minority compared to 1,800 Austrians; 5,250 Poles; 9,700 "Russians"; and 15,600 "Germans". He was evidently Jewish judging by his occupation, household and neighbours; and he was living little over 2 miles from Berner Street in 1891.

Whether he's "our" Schwartz or not is another matter, of course, but I wouldn't be especially surprised if he were.

I don't see why "Israel Schwartz" would change his name to "John Schwartz." While this is possible, of course, I think it's more likely that he would anglicize it all the way

How many Budapest-born Schwartzes (or Eastern Europeans generally) were given the name "John" at birth, though? As I said, there was evidently an Anglicisation somewhere along the line, even if it hadn't spread to his surname. There are plenty of examples of "partial Anglicisation" amongst immigrants in the census records - e.g. John Perzanowski, John Kaminski, John Sussman, George Swartz, Frank Smolinski, etc.

I also don't see any connection between being a tailor's presser by profession to being "in the theatrical line"....

On that we're agreed, and - just to be clear - that's the "other" (Polish) Schwartz, not the Hungarian one.

[ChrisGeorge]

Taken over from another thread - thought it better to start a new one dedicated to tracking down our elusive witness.

Hi Chris,Blimey - I had quite forgotten. I note that Gavin gives me a mention for suggesting that Israel's "theatrical appearance" might fit with "J Schwartz's" tonsorial occupation (thanks, Gavin!). I was about to (re)suggest his occupation as a possible pointer that he might be our man.

The lodger Schwartz was described as a tailor's presser - an occupation which might, initially, seem to chime with the description of being "in the theatrical line"....

Then there's his name, which wasn't "Israel", but "John". Bearing in mind that hairdresser Schwartz would certainly not have been called "John" when he left Budapest, it's safe to assume that the jettisoning of his original name happened somewhere along the line.

...Yacuba and Malka Schwarz. Yacuba, or "Jacob", is practically interchangeable with "Israel" amongst Hebrew names, and whilst "Malka" is an unusual enough name in itself, in the form of "Amelie" or "Emilie" it seems to have been a reasonably common Anglicisation amongst Jewish emigrees to the Western World.

Hi Tom,

Not painting with a broad brush, so much as pointing out something which could have a significant bearing on the matter. Although I agree with you fully that we shouldn't entertain the possibility of exceptions, that doesn't mean that we should dismiss the general rule.

Hi Sam

While I admire your curiosity and your attempt to find out more about Israel Schwartz, I also think you are making some broad assumptions, Sam. I don't see why "Israel Schwartz" would change his name to "John Schwartz." While this is possible, of course, I think it's more likely that he would anglicize it all the way to "John Black" if he were to adopt an English sounding name. I also don't see any connection between being a tailor's presser by profession to being "in the theatrical line".... Apart from the fact that actors wear clothes and someone in the clothing industry makes clothes, there's no obvious connection between the two occupations.

All the best

Chris

Ive read a fair bit here about the division of Jewish Immigrants themselves, courtesy of Natalie and Sam primarily, but I wonder when it comes to The Double Event Night, are'nt we potentially looking at Jew/Gentile Anti-Semite relations? We have Jews at the first location, A Jewish Socialist/Anarchists club with only Jewish Witnesses past 12:30-35am, after PC Smith and until Spooner is brought onsite, we have 3 Jewish witnesses at the second site, who may have seen Kate after leaving a Jewish Mens Club, and we have a chalk message left in a predominantly, almost entirely, Jewish enclave that spells the word "Jew" incorrectly, and can be interpreted to be an Anti-Semetic sentiment. And we have 2 gentile victims.

I think Jack was a gentile myself.

I see much of what was reported, including Schwartz's translated account, perhaps being influenced by the Police's attitude towards the Club and perhaps Immigrant Jews in general. It was a Socialist protest that drew out Warrens mens batons in the first place.

How can we portray the brawl in the yard a few months after this incident.....the boiling point between them and police?

Maybe someone knows the answer to this....what percentage of Metropolitan Police were Jewish at this time? And what was the percentage of residents within the East End that were?

My guess is that the numbers would be low in the first, high in the second....leading to perhaps a polarization of core beliefs between the 2.

Best regards.

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;22891]Natalie Severn's not that hard to find. Just PM her through her profile. I hope this was of help.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott[
/QUOTE]

cheeky sod

[Tom_Wescott]

I'll see what I can find, Tom. I'm lookin' for all of 'em, believe me - Louis, Israel, Severin, the lot If I hit upon anything interesting, I'll open a thread.

Natalie Severn's not that hard to find. Just PM her through her profile. I hope this was of help.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

I'll see what I can find, Tom. I'm lookin' for all of 'em, believe me - Louis, Israel, Severin, the lot If I hit upon anything interesting, I'll open a thread.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Sam. Did I ever tell you that Diemschutz's buddy and clubman, Sam Friedman, bought a ticket on the Titanic in 1912 but gave it away at the last minute? He eventually made his way to New York and then settled in New Jersey. Diemschutz may have as well, though under a different name.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott