The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom Wescott is right.

and

Tom is quite right.

Word to your Cappy.

I need to mark this day down on my calendar.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

So the Sunday was not a devout Holy Day....but since Schwartz left his house the day before, technically he was there Sunday morning, but from an excursion that started the Saturday afternoon.

But that doesn't make him a Revolutionary nor in a conspiracy to protect one. Michael, I tried to clarify the situation for you. Now you want to melt the butter.

Roy

Hi folks,

Perhaps I was miffed on Caps account David, whichever the case, thanks for the reply post and sorry If I categorized it incorrectly. And thanks for the notes on Tishri Roy. So the Sunday was not a devout Holy Day....but since Schwartz left his house the day before, technically he was there Sunday morning, but from an excursion that started the Saturday afternoon.

The Good Michael cites concerns I have given for a few years here regarding the International Club...the tide turned for me on these men when Tom Wescott informed me on some of the key characters ages at 40 Berner. None were over 30, and one was only 17, Kozebrodski.

Social upheaval requires strong young men sometimes.

I will accept David and Don that the likelihood is that no Jewish holiday was observed by the men at the International Club Saturday Night, although Im not sure that some might have felt very divided about having to choose definitively....but that doesnt yet include Schwartz ...we do not have a known connection with the Club or Socialism. Yet we do have him placing himself at a site that is associated with Socialism, and was active that night, still so when he says he was there.. at near 1am.

One of Schwartz's versions of his story infers antisemitism.
Is his "theatrical appearance" ethnically skewed at all I wonder?

You know what Im looking for......a signal that Schwartz would have any reason to tell a "story" in a way that passes the buck to a killer from outside the club, just arriving.

If Liz was mutilated like Annie...they wouldnt need a story...no cop would believe that 28 men there would all conspire to protect Jack the Ripper, even if the killer was one of their own. You have a stated empty yard and open gates. But she wasnt killed like Annie. She was killed in a manner that literally anyone there, including Mrs D, could have duplicated if so predisposed to kill.

Eagle and Lave figuratively clear the yard just before Schwartz arrives with their stories, though neither sees each other yet their stories have them both in the yard at 12:40.. Eagle's also locks the front door, Schwartz then puts the probable assailant first approaching Liz on the street, from the direction of that locked front door, Fanny though is at her door off and on from 12:45ish until 1am, and she doesnt see or hear Liz, BSM...or the man yell, Schwartz and Pipeman scurrying by...and although Goldstein walks past the gates within 1 minute of the latest time she was cut by Dr Blackwell at 1:16, there is nothing just inside the gates to see evidently, and no interest in his joining in the merriment inside even though he is also a member... though for Blackwell to be correct, she is almost certainly lying there or being killed at that time.

These events seem very fortuitous for the Club when added up, how could anyone suspect a Club member..empty yard, locked front door, Liz out of sight after meeting a thug outside the gates, and being found dead by the Club Steward returning from the market just inside them....with every other male member of the club still active that night on the second floor.

As The Good Michael says.....an understanding of how this club and members were perceived by neighbors and authorities puts the group in a category that involves probable unlawful activities....and Diemshutz, Kozebrodski and other are arrested in Dutfields Yard in 1889 for attacking Police with clubs.

I dont believe the above is the true story..and if so, Schwartz would have played a key role in its creation.

Best regards all.

[DVV]

David, I dont think Caps needed chastising for the exploration of my question. Since Marx died in 1883...I dont think his doctrines should be considered broadly accepted by 1888 either.

Hi Mike,
broadly accepted or not, Marx doctrine was certainly accepted by socialist Jews at least.
But that wasn't my point. I mentioned Marx and Chomsky as examples of atheist and militant Jews, that's all.
Don's post, in any case, is clear and sensible - more than mine.
I'm sincerely sorry if I appeared offensive towards Cappuccina.
I'm not sure I was, but if so, apologies.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Roy Corduroy]

Sept 30

Yes, that was what I was trying to say, that Yom Kippur might fall into that category...

"...Yom Kippur is probably the most important holiday of the Jewish year. Many Jews who do not observe any other Jewish custom will refrain from work, fast and/or attend synagogue services on this day. Yom Kippur occurs on the 10th day of Tishri.

The name "Yom Kippur" means "Day of Atonement," and that pretty much explains what the holiday is.

cappucina, thank you. I note you specify the 10th day of Tishri.

On another thread I shared a quote about Jewish holy days and the days of murder -(click here) from Chaim Bermant's London's East End: point of arrival and continuing now on page 119:

"The fourth and firth murders took place in the early hours of 30 September, well beyond the cycle of the Solemn Days, and on the 25th of Tishri, one of the few days in the holiest of Jewish months to be devoid of any religious significance whatever."

This is confirmed by the 1888 Calendar - (click here)

So Perry, there must have been some miscommunicaton. Sept 30 was not Yom Kippur.

Roy

[The Good Michael]

The things that Tom and Don are saying are a big component of why the Berner Street Club may have things to answer for regarding Stride's death. While socialist and anarchistic activity was understandable and perhaps necessary for the time and place, there may have been other, more nefarious goings-on than the simple spread of ideology via pamphleteering and club meetings. Actually for me that particular evening when Stride met her demise is absolutely fascinating. Did Schwartz have an agenda? Was he a member of the club? Was he hired to make a statement? Many cool questions arise that we don't see with any of the other victims.

Cheers,

Mike

[Supe]

Tom is quite right and once again people are falling into the trap of applying modern, personal experiences to historic fact. The members of the Club were most assuredly Jews by birth if not practice, hence "Socialist Jews" which really equated to being both "Socialists and atheists." What pangs of religiosity some few members may occasionally have had was between themselves and their conscience. But publicly, what they considered a bourgeios concent--religion of any kind--was ever deprecated. The notion that "religion is the opiate of the masses" was a hallmark of Socialism (and later Marxism) and religion was considered a major enemy on the path to a Socialist utopia.

Hi again,

David, I dont think Caps needed chastising for the exploration of my question. Since Marx died in 1883...I dont think his doctrines should be considered broadly accepted by 1888 either.

As I suggested, we are not talking about practicing Jews....more like ones that were raised by parents of that faith and with ingrained connections to certain days that are most holy in that religion. As I said, Im no longer a Roman Catholic...havent been a practicing one in 40 years...but I do go to a Roman Catholic church at least 2 days of every year.

This Ripper night is without question the only night where Jews are the most important witnesses...at both sites. This was also Yom Kippur apparently....the day of Atonement, as Caps points out very significant to Jewish people...in fact its possible Liz helped serve dinner at the Jewish home she did some work in before we see her out that night.

The word Jew can only be used to describe ethnicity or faith..so how would you and Tom reconcile the term Socialist Jew in print in 1888? I think what we have here is a gentile perception of how Jews behave...all devout or not at all....but what of infrequent flyers?...like my Catholicism.

Schwartz started this line of questioning for me....he is a Jew, we dont know if he is Socialist or not...or a club member...but he is out at 12:45am...it is Yom Kippur apparently, and we see him walking by a Socialist Jew Mens Club with members still in attendance singing after a meeting and speech by Eagle, "Why Jews should be Socialists"....and his explanation is that he was going to his home that his wife moved from since noon Saturday to see if she was finished. The new digs are within a few blocks, and all she had to move would be some personal effects and clothes. He left around noon Saturday, and its almost 13 hours later, and after midnight....and he is checking the old location..first. The story sucks.

So Im trying to look for a reason for him to be where he said he was that is not likely a falsehood...which I believe the translated story of his reason for being there is.

A male Jew outside a Socialist Jewish Mens Club, after a Socialist meeting on Yom Kippur, at almost 1am, with some 28 men still in the club....oblivious to his wifes whereabouts after giving her 13 hours to move clothes to a new address not near 40 Berner Street, .... seems to invite some scrutiny dont you think?

Best regards.

[DVV]

I really don't know understand why I used two verbs in the above post.
I think guess it's because I'm high irie.

[DVV]

Hi Cappuccina,
I really don't know understand why we are now dealing with the Hebrew calendar.
Club members were Jews but they were not religious.
They were even against their religion.
This is a well known phenomenon, from Marx to Chomsky.
I can't believe this is challenged here.
Tom Wescott is right.
Nothing new, as you said, so what?

Amitiés,
David

[cappuccina]

Yes, that was what I was trying to say, that Yom Kippur might fall into that category...


From: http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm


"...Yom Kippur is probably the most important holiday of the Jewish year. Many Jews who do not observe any other Jewish custom will refrain from work, fast and/or attend synagogue services on this day. Yom Kippur occurs on the 10th day of Tishri. The holiday is instituted at Leviticus 23:26 et seq.

The name "Yom Kippur" means "Day of Atonement," and that pretty much explains what the holiday is. It is a day set aside to "afflict the soul," to atone for the sins of the past year. In Days of Awe, I mentioned the "books" in which G-d inscribes all of our names. On Yom Kippur, the judgment entered in these books is sealed. This day is, essentially, your last appeal, your last chance to change the judgment, to demonstrate your repentance and make amends.

As I noted in Days of Awe, Yom Kippur atones only for sins between man and G-d, not for sins against another person. To atone for sins against another person, you must first seek reconciliation with that person, righting the wrongs you committed against them if possible. That must all be done before Yom Kippur...."


(It is the ONLY Jewish holiday my husband ALWAYS celebrates; he is from a mixed Jewish and Christian background, like me...)

I really like where you are going with your thinking on this, Michael/Perry...

...I'm thinking Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur??

Thanks caps and David....that was his link on the question as well.

My point was regarding all this, that is there anything other than the Socialist Meeting itself that might have taken place at the Club...for members that observed only the highest holidays of their faith, despite the requirement that they abandon all connection with it as Tom suggested?

Might some very significant holy days....like Christmas and Easter for Christians, be celebrated by Socialist Jews?

My guess would be...if any were to be celebrated, they would be the very few truly spiritual days of their religion.

Im wondering why Schwartz was actually there at all.

His wife had surely completed moving their clothes long before 12:45am....its not like he would have had dressers and tables to move.

Thanks and best regards Caps and David

[cappuccina]

...I'm thinking Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur??

Even a lot of non-practicing Jews, like myself (I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian/Jewish combo...LOL) will have a New Year's dinner, or something like that, and will fast on Yom Kippur...

[cappuccina]

Here are the Hebrew calendars with observances for 5648 and 5649:

Here are combined Hebrew-Gregorian calendars. The first (upper) number in each cell is the day in a Hebrew month, and the second (lower) one is the day in a Gregorian month. The colored days are Jewish holidays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5648_(Hebrew_year)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5649_(Hebrew_year)

I do not know why these do not come up correctly...I am trying to fix...

[Mr.Hyde]

Just to appease my curiosity.....was the Holiday held on the Evening before the Double Event one of the very Holiest of days in Judaism?

Best regards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippor

Doubt JTR was Jewish.Jewish looking,yes.