The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Tom_Wescott]

Sam,

Have you already become married to this idea that if Schwartz was from Hungary he possessed some preternatural hatred for his brethren? I'm sorry but I find that absurd. Besides, the IWEC were not religious and had members of all races and nationalities, so the rules of 'normal Jews' would obviously not apply to them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Have you already become married to this idea that if Schwartz was from Hungary he possessed some preternatural hatred for his brethren?

I never said anything of the kind, Tom - I found out an interesting historical fact that might have a bearing on the case. Nothing wrong in that. Why can't we be grateful for each other's finding things out in the spirit of knowledge-sharing, instead of prematurely urinating on any sparks that might threaten to send our own ideas up in smoke? God knows, I've been guilty of that in the past myself, and it's ultimately counterproductive.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fair enough, Sam. I guess I just don't see the argument you're making. My guess about Israel Schwartz is that he went to New York, as many of the other Jews in the area (including IWEC men) were wont to do. They thought of London as a temporary stopover.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Fair enough, Sam. I guess I just don't see the argument you're making.

Thanks, Tom.

I'm really not arguing anything - just sharing an interesting snippet I discovered.

My guess about Israel Schwartz is that he went to New York, as many of the other Jews in the area (including IWEC men) were wont to do. They thought of London as a temporary stopover.

It's true that many of them did, but many stayed behind. Oddly enough, some who had intended to go to the States stopped off in England and stayed there, and many sailed first to New York and then to London - because it was often cheaper to do it that way! (Ref. Geoffrey Alderman, Modern British Jewry - a book I can heartily recommend.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Sam. Did I ever tell you that Diemschutz's buddy and clubman, Sam Friedman, bought a ticket on the Titanic in 1912 but gave it away at the last minute? He eventually made his way to New York and then settled in New Jersey. Diemschutz may have as well, though under a different name.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

I'll see what I can find, Tom. I'm lookin' for all of 'em, believe me - Louis, Israel, Severin, the lot If I hit upon anything interesting, I'll open a thread.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'll see what I can find, Tom. I'm lookin' for all of 'em, believe me - Louis, Israel, Severin, the lot If I hit upon anything interesting, I'll open a thread.

Natalie Severn's not that hard to find. Just PM her through her profile. I hope this was of help.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;22891]Natalie Severn's not that hard to find. Just PM her through her profile. I hope this was of help.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott[
/QUOTE]

cheeky sod

[perrymason]

Ive read a fair bit here about the division of Jewish Immigrants themselves, courtesy of Natalie and Sam primarily, but I wonder when it comes to The Double Event Night, are'nt we potentially looking at Jew/Gentile Anti-Semite relations? We have Jews at the first location, A Jewish Socialist/Anarchists club with only Jewish Witnesses past 12:30-35am, after PC Smith and until Spooner is brought onsite, we have 3 Jewish witnesses at the second site, who may have seen Kate after leaving a Jewish Mens Club, and we have a chalk message left in a predominantly, almost entirely, Jewish enclave that spells the word "Jew" incorrectly, and can be interpreted to be an Anti-Semetic sentiment. And we have 2 gentile victims.

I think Jack was a gentile myself.

I see much of what was reported, including Schwartz's translated account, perhaps being influenced by the Police's attitude towards the Club and perhaps Immigrant Jews in general. It was a Socialist protest that drew out Warrens mens batons in the first place.

How can we portray the brawl in the yard a few months after this incident.....the boiling point between them and police?

Maybe someone knows the answer to this....what percentage of Metropolitan Police were Jewish at this time? And what was the percentage of residents within the East End that were?

My guess is that the numbers would be low in the first, high in the second....leading to perhaps a polarization of core beliefs between the 2.

Best regards.

[ChrisGeorge]

Taken over from another thread - thought it better to start a new one dedicated to tracking down our elusive witness.

Hi Chris,Blimey - I had quite forgotten. I note that Gavin gives me a mention for suggesting that Israel's "theatrical appearance" might fit with "J Schwartz's" tonsorial occupation (thanks, Gavin!). I was about to (re)suggest his occupation as a possible pointer that he might be our man.

The lodger Schwartz was described as a tailor's presser - an occupation which might, initially, seem to chime with the description of being "in the theatrical line"....

Then there's his name, which wasn't "Israel", but "John". Bearing in mind that hairdresser Schwartz would certainly not have been called "John" when he left Budapest, it's safe to assume that the jettisoning of his original name happened somewhere along the line.

...Yacuba and Malka Schwarz. Yacuba, or "Jacob", is practically interchangeable with "Israel" amongst Hebrew names, and whilst "Malka" is an unusual enough name in itself, in the form of "Amelie" or "Emilie" it seems to have been a reasonably common Anglicisation amongst Jewish emigrees to the Western World.

Hi Tom,

Not painting with a broad brush, so much as pointing out something which could have a significant bearing on the matter. Although I agree with you fully that we shouldn't entertain the possibility of exceptions, that doesn't mean that we should dismiss the general rule.

Hi Sam

While I admire your curiosity and your attempt to find out more about Israel Schwartz, I also think you are making some broad assumptions, Sam. I don't see why "Israel Schwartz" would change his name to "John Schwartz." While this is possible, of course, I think it's more likely that he would anglicize it all the way to "John Black" if he were to adopt an English sounding name. I also don't see any connection between being a tailor's presser by profession to being "in the theatrical line".... Apart from the fact that actors wear clothes and someone in the clothing industry makes clothes, there's no obvious connection between the two occupations.

All the best

Chris

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chris,

While I admire your curiosity... I also think you are making some broad assumptions, Sam.

Thanks for the kind words. As to the broad assumptions - I really don't think they are, in all honesty. At leat this chap was definitely Hungarian, at a time when the whole of London contained only 350 of his kinsmen - a distinct minority compared to 1,800 Austrians; 5,250 Poles; 9,700 "Russians"; and 15,600 "Germans". He was evidently Jewish judging by his occupation, household and neighbours; and he was living little over 2 miles from Berner Street in 1891.

Whether he's "our" Schwartz or not is another matter, of course, but I wouldn't be especially surprised if he were.

I don't see why "Israel Schwartz" would change his name to "John Schwartz." While this is possible, of course, I think it's more likely that he would anglicize it all the way

How many Budapest-born Schwartzes (or Eastern Europeans generally) were given the name "John" at birth, though? As I said, there was evidently an Anglicisation somewhere along the line, even if it hadn't spread to his surname. There are plenty of examples of "partial Anglicisation" amongst immigrants in the census records - e.g. John Perzanowski, John Kaminski, John Sussman, George Swartz, Frank Smolinski, etc.

I also don't see any connection between being a tailor's presser by profession to being "in the theatrical line"....

On that we're agreed, and - just to be clear - that's the "other" (Polish) Schwartz, not the Hungarian one.

[ChrisGeorge]

Maybe someone knows the answer to this....what percentage of Metropolitan Police were Jewish at this time? And what was the percentage of residents within the East End that were?

My guess is that the numbers would be low in the first, high in the second....leading to perhaps a polarization of core beliefs between the 2.

Best regards.

Hello Michael

I don't have exact numbers as to the number of policemen who were Jewish and the number of Jews in the East End at the time of the murders has to be estimated as well. However, I would guess that the percentage of Jewish policemen in the Met and the City of London Police would would be a single digit number, and probably a low single digit number. At least 100,000 Jews are estimated to have been in the East End by 1902 per the Jewish Encyclopedia while in the period 1871-1901, the population of the London Borough of Tower Hamlets grew from to 511,947 to 597,102 ("East End of London" in Wikipedia), so we might extrapolate that up to 20% of the population of the East End were Jewish in 1888, or one in every five people.

Chris

[Sam Flynn]

I think Jack was a gentile myself.

How can we portray the brawl in the yard a few months after this incident.....the boiling point between them and police?

Maybe someone knows the answer to this....what percentage of Metropolitan Police were Jewish at this time? And what was the percentage of residents within the East End that were?

Mike - with respect - interesting thought these things might be, they have nothing to do with the subject of this thread, which I'd purposely budded off from a more general discussion in the first place!

I note that Chris has answered some of your questions, though - for which many thanks.

[perrymason]

Point taken Sam, and thanks for that Chris.

Cheers.

[evilina]

The Importance of the Census Taker

All of the discussion of the change of name might need to include the census taker. All information was recorded by one person and this could be the source of any name changes.