Israel Schwartz Observation

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Jeff,

Even if Schwartz's timing was wrong, it can't have been that much - in any case it would still mean that his story would be clashing and conflicting with other statements even more. There really isn't much room for fiddling around with the timings and there are limits to such experimentation.
On one hand - closer to 1 am - we have to consider the time of the murder as well as the timings estimated by Mrs Mortimer and Letchford's sister for their own whereabouts on Berner Street. But, on the other hand, pulling the Schwartz incident further back prior to 12:45, means that it clashes with other witnesses, who didn't witness such an incident either.
In any direction we drag and pull the time levels of the Schwartz incident, we run into trouble.

So what you're saying just don't work.

I am not stating as a fact or a sure opinion that Schwartz made up the story, only - to repeat - that the event is UNVERIFIED by other sightings and that there are several problems with it that shouldn't be overlooked, and that we therefore shouldn't automatically and uncritically ASSUME for a fact that the incident did happen or that BS and Pipeman really existed.

All the best

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,

Even if Schwartz's timing was wrong, it can't have been that much - in any case it would still mean that his story would be clashing and conflicting with other statements even more. There really isn't much room for fiddling around with the timings and there are limits to such experimentation.
On one hand - closer to 1 am - we have to consider the time of the murder as well as the timings estimated by Mrs Mortimer and Letchford's sister for their own whereabouts on Berner Street. But, on the other hand, pulling the Schwartz incident further back prior to 12:45, means that it clashes with other witnesses, who didn't witness such an incident either.
In any direction we drag and pull the time levels of the Schwartz incident, we run into trouble.

So what you're saying just don't work.

I am not stating as a fact or a sure opinion that Schwartz made up the story, only - to repeat - that the event is UNVERIFIED by other sightings and that there are several problems with it that shouldn't be overlooked, and that we therefore shouldn't automatically and uncritically ASSUME for a fact that the incident did happen or that BS and Pipeman really existed.

All the best

Glenn you dont have to make any justifications to me. We both know the various problems...and I beleive that we would both agree that..due to the large amouts of variation...and witness testimony..that this is the most imortant of the six..( ) murders..

The case hinges here..and I claim to know no more than you...

God knows I've gone over it all enough times in my head..

Trusting you would offer your time and opinion if I required it?

Hoping you are well..look forward to seeing you again soon...

Best wishes Jeff

Wish I had somehing new to add..berner street tasks me xx

[Sam Flynn]

Israel Schwartz - found at last?

I can't recall anyone pinning down Israel Schwartz in the Census, but I have strong reason to believe that this is because he dropped the name "Israel" in favour of "John" shortly after 1888 - if I have found the right man, that is.

A certain "J Schwartz", hairdresser (born Buda Pesht) was living at Saffron Hill, City of London, in 1891, with his wife Emilie. By 1901, "John Schwartz", still a hairdresser, "Emily" and their children are living at 218 Kingsland Road, Dalston - oddly enough, barely a stone's throw away from where Joseph Lawende lived in 1888.

For the conspiricists amongst you - if this is the same Schwartz, and I believe it is, did he change his name simply to become more Anglophone, or was it perhaps because he didn't want "any trouble"?

[Jeff Leahy]

Sam

The changing of names was common place..hence the 'Kosminski's dog thread.

People simply wanted to earn a living, and if that meant changing your name..thats what you did.

I dont think any conspiracy can be draw from this?

How you do in?

Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

People simply wanted to earn a living, and if that meant changing your name..thats what you did.

I dont think any conspiracy can be draw from this?

Neither do I think so, Jeff - but some might

I was just pleased to have tracked down Schwartz at last.

How you do in?

Fine. Thanks for asking.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Glenn you dont have to make any justifications to me. We both know the various problems...and I beleive that we would both agree that..due to the large amouts of variation...and witness testimony..that this is the most imortant of the six..( ) murders..

The case hinges here..and I claim to know no more than you...

God knows I've gone over it all enough times in my head..

Trusting you would offer your time and opinion if I required it?

Hoping you are well..look forward to seeing you again soon...

Best wishes Jeff

Wish I had somehing new to add..berner street tasks me xx

Hope you are well too, Jeff.
All the best

[Chris]

I can't recall anyone pinning down Israel Schwartz in the Census, but I have strong reason to believe that this is because he dropped the name "Israel" in favour of "John" shortly after 1888 - if I have found the right man, that is.

A certain "J Schwartz", hairdresser (born Buda Pesht) was living at Saffron Hill, City of London, in 1891, with his wife Emilie. By 1901, "John Schwartz", still a hairdresser, "Emily" and their children are living at 218 Kingsland Road, Dalston - oddly enough, barely a stone's throw away from where Joseph Lawende lived in 1888.

Of course, there's also a Polish-born Israel Schwartz who lived in the neighbourhood of Berner Street, of whose family Gavin Bromley gave some details in his dissertation, "Mrs Kuer's Lodger".

Obviously "John Schwartz" has the advantage of being Hungarian by birth. I'd be curious to know whether there are other reasons to prefer him to the alternative candidate.

[perrymason]

Brief insert to Glenn......I believe Schwartz's tale does work, if you place the actions inside the yard rather than out, and have him leaving via the side door at 12:45.

On Schwartz, is there anyone who has found an active members list for the International Club in Sept/Oct 88? I know Tom has researched this extensively, but I dont know if that has been found. My bet is that Israel Schwartz was a member. What if he changed only his given name to distance himself from the "Event" night? Simply plausible deniability?

It might explain why he would keep the surname, he wasnt distancing himself from his Jewish heritage, just from the guy named Israel. Maybe?

Best regards.

[Jon Guy]

Brief insert to Glenn......I believe Schwartz's tale does work, if you place the actions inside the yard rather than out, and have him leaving via the side door at 12:45.

Indeed, Michael, nice post.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Brief insert to Glenn......I believe Schwartz's tale does work, if you place the actions inside the yard rather than out, and have him leaving via the side door at 12:45.

Well, it still makes things extremely tight, considering PC Smith's account of seeing Stride together with a man while patroling his beat along Berner Street at about 12.35 pm. He didn't see anyone similar to BS and certainly didn't see any incident.
Not to mention James Brown's sighting of her by the Board School at 00.45 - the same time as the supposed Schwartz incident. And he certainly didn't notice any person similar to BS or witness any incidetn similar to the one Schwartz gave evidence of.

Again - the problem is not what occurred inside the yard, but the fact that the persons mentioned by SChwartz must have been seen out on the street bore or after the alleged incident, arriving or leaving the site!
Accepting that Brown was mistaken about the time or maybe even the person he identified, it is of course not impossible, but it still a stretch.
In my view, placing the Schwartz incident prior to 00.45 makes it just as difficult as squeezing it in closer to 1 am.

In any case, it must be acknowledged that the time frames here for any such incident to occur appears extremely tight and limited, unless we are forced to accept that the time estimates most of the witnesses were way off.

[Jon Guy]

Well, it still makes things extremely tight, considering PC Smith's account of seeing Stride together with a man while patroling his beat along Berner Street at about 12.35 pm. He didn't see anyone similar to BS and certainly didn't see any incident.
Not to mention James Brown's sighting of her by the Board School at 00.45 - the same time as the supposed Schwartz incident. And he certainly didn't notice any person similar to BS or witness any incidetn similar to the one Schwartz gave evidence of.

Again - the problem is not what occurred inside the yard, but the fact that the persons mentioned by SChwartz must have been seen out on the street bore or after the alleged incident, arriving or leaving the site!
Accepting that Brown was mistaken about the time or maybe even the person he identified, it is of course not impossible, but it still a stretch.
In my view, placing the Schwartz incident prior to 00.45 makes it just as difficult as squeezing it in closer to 1 am.

In any case, it must be acknowledged that the time frames here for any such incident to occur appears extremely tight and limited, unless we are forced to accept that the time estimates most of the witnesses were way off.

Hi Glenn

If PC Smith walked down Berner St at 12.35, who did Mrs Mortimer hear walk past her door shortly before 12.45 am ? The only people we are aware of who walked down that side of Berner St at that time were BS Man and Schwartz.

The couple seen by Brown were against the Board school, but around the corner from Berner St, in Fairclough St,out of view of Berner St.

As an aside,was Brown "Pipeman" ?
He came out of a shop on Berner St at 12.45 and crossed the road, as Schwartz described ? Just a thought.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Glenn

If PC Smith walked down Berner St at 12.35, who did Mrs Mortimer hear walk past her door shortly before 12.45 am ?

I believe she hears Goldstein the man with the black bag who later comes forward?

[Jon Guy]

I believe she hears Goldstein the man with the black bag who later comes forward?

She saw Goldstein walk down Berner St just before 01.00 am.

She saw him walk down Berner St from Commercial Rd and turn left at the junction of Fairclough St by the Board School. She saw him look up at the Club as he passed on the opposite side of the road.

[Jeff Leahy]

Yeah sorry John

I guess its always assumed that she HEARS Pc Long

I quote: 'heard the measured, heavy stamp of a policeman passing the house on his beat'

So either PC Long or Mortimers timing is out. I would hazard a guess that Mrs Mortimer was..

[Jeff Leahy]

Bugger... I mean PC Smith, I'm in a tizzle today