Israel Schwartz Observation

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,

Even if Schwartz's timing was wrong, it can't have been that much - in any case it would still mean that his story would be clashing and conflicting with other statements even more. There really isn't much room for fiddling around with the timings and there are limits to such experimentation.
On one hand - closer to 1 am - we have to consider the time of the murder as well as the timings estimated by Mrs Mortimer and Letchford's sister for their own whereabouts on Berner Street. But, on the other hand, pulling the Schwartz incident further back prior to 12:45, means that it clashes with other witnesses, who didn't witness such an incident either.
In any direction we drag and pull the time levels of the Schwartz incident, we run into trouble.

So what you're saying just don't work.

I am not stating as a fact or a sure opinion that Schwartz made up the story, only - to repeat - that the event is UNVERIFIED by other sightings and that there are several problems with it that shouldn't be overlooked, and that we therefore shouldn't automatically and uncritically ASSUME for a fact that the incident did happen or that BS and Pipeman really existed.

All the best

Glenn you dont have to make any justifications to me. We both know the various problems...and I beleive that we would both agree that..due to the large amouts of variation...and witness testimony..that this is the most imortant of the six..( ) murders..

The case hinges here..and I claim to know no more than you...

God knows I've gone over it all enough times in my head..

Trusting you would offer your time and opinion if I required it?

Hoping you are well..look forward to seeing you again soon...

Best wishes Jeff

Wish I had somehing new to add..berner street tasks me xx

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Jeff,

Even if Schwartz's timing was wrong, it can't have been that much - in any case it would still mean that his story would be clashing and conflicting with other statements even more. There really isn't much room for fiddling around with the timings and there are limits to such experimentation.
On one hand - closer to 1 am - we have to consider the time of the murder as well as the timings estimated by Mrs Mortimer and Letchford's sister for their own whereabouts on Berner Street. But, on the other hand, pulling the Schwartz incident further back prior to 12:45, means that it clashes with other witnesses, who didn't witness such an incident either.
In any direction we drag and pull the time levels of the Schwartz incident, we run into trouble.

So what you're saying just don't work.

I am not stating as a fact or a sure opinion that Schwartz made up the story, only - to repeat - that the event is UNVERIFIED by other sightings and that there are several problems with it that shouldn't be overlooked, and that we therefore shouldn't automatically and uncritically ASSUME for a fact that the incident did happen or that BS and Pipeman really existed.

All the best

[Jeff Leahy]

Surely the logical explination is that Schwartz timing was wrong.

This would allow for Mrs Mortimers story to be correct..

She went inside as she said.

Schwartz, witnesses Strides murder (possibly by JtR)

However, he is disturbed by Schwartz, NOT deimshutz, and abandons the body before he has time to mutilate.

Running into the yard..not out..and locking the door behind him and escaping to the rear of berner yard..heading towards Commercial street (under the guidance of 'GOD')

STIDE is simply dead when discovered by Deimshutz, it is simply to dark to tell for sure..

Thus Schwartz is Swansons..WITNESS..it just makes sense..It also makes sense why he would not give testomony against Aaron Kosminski..

Simple but controversial

Many thanks for all your posts..facsinating reading..

Jeff

[Roy Corduroy]

Shouting “Lipski” loud enough for the Pipe man to hear was...

Why didn’t Krantz, Mrs D, the servant girl, who’s name temporarily escapes me, and all the those in the dining room, hear it? Why didn’t Mrs Mortimer hear it? Why didn’t the young girl and her sweetheart hear it or see BS and Schwartz?

Hi Dusty,

From inquest testimony:

Phillip Krantz - I live at 40 Berner-street and am the editor of a Hebrew paper caller the Workers' Friend. I work in the room at the back of the printing office on the ground floor, and the entrance is from the yard. I was in the back room from 9 o'clock on Saturday night until one of the members of the club came and told me there was a woman lying in the yard.

The CORONER - Had you heard any cry or scream? - None.
Was your window or door open? - No.
Is it a wooden structure? - No; brick.
Supposing a woman had screamed, would you have heard it? - I do not know. They were singing upstairs.

That takes care of Mr. Krantz. And consider that the club people were in the main structure, where the singing was. What we don't know was if the singing was Mezzo Forte, Forte, or Fortissimo.

Hope this helps,

Roy

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The report of Mrs Mortimer's sighting appears to be a newspaper report rather than an official police witness report, and i'm guessing there were plenty of newspapers around then whose motto was much the same as the tabloids today i.e. never let the truth get in the way of agood story. Its also worth noting that at that time most of the eastend population would not have a watch and if you weren't in sight of a church clock time was basicaly a question of guesswork. With this in mind i think we have to accept that most of the witness timings could easily be a few minutes out. As for Mrs Mortimer what do you find to do hanging around your front door for half an hour?(unless she was also looking for business), and if she saw nothing unusual what of Strides scuffle, or Schwartz running off followed by clay pipe man?

Brummie,

Mrs Mortimer's statement was not just a newspaper story. It was confirmed by the fact that the only man she claimed she saw, the one with the black bag - Leon Goldstein - came forward after reading about himself.
So in that respect her statement and aso the timing of her whereabouts is confirmed.

In additon: from where did you get the 'half an hour' part? She most likely, according to herself, wasn't outside more than ten minutes tops and probably went outside a few minutes before Diemschutz arrived as she heard his horse an cart after she went inside.

Also, newspaper statements intended to be a'good story' has a tendency to contain a lot of dramatization (like the Star version of Schwartz's story), but in Mortimer's case it's the complete opposite - it doesn't contain any spectacular tabloid material. If it was meant to be spectacular, then it would hardly be a simple account of someone not seeing anything or anybody!

and if she saw nothing unusual what of Strides scuffle, or Schwartz running off followed by clay pipe man?

That's just the point, Brummie!
She didn't hear or see anything. Mrs Mortimer's statement is at least to some parts confirmed, but Schwartz's - although initially an official police report - is not. So why would you automatically give Schwartz's unverified story about BS and Pipeman more credence when it actually conflicts with and is totally unsupported by other evidence?

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

PS You could call that thread: The Eagle Has Landed

...or, "You would spare anything but your prey".

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi again Perry,

... the people who would be in trouble if a murder on the property was thought to be committed by a member. Who has the impetus to lie?

I note you continue to return back to cast suspicion on the club members, officials, and everyone connected with that. The premises were thoroughly searched. Immedately. Everyone still there was looked at and interviewed. Some later testified at the inquest. One attendee, Goldstein, presented himself to the police to establish his bonafides. In short, everyone was thoroughly vetted. An unmistakable fact at the time and still accepted today. Indeed, Perry, if you posit individuals as supects, such as Eagle, couldn't you also kindly begin a separate thread to that effect. Under Suspects.

Yours truly,

Roy

PS You could call that thread: The Eagle Has Landed

[brummie]

The report of Mrs Mortimer's sighting appears to be a newspaper report rather than an official police witness report, and i'm guessing there were plenty of newspapers around then whose motto was much the same as the tabloids today i.e. never let the truth get in the way of agood story. Its also worth noting that at that time most of the eastend population would not have a watch and if you weren't in sight of a church clock time was basicaly a question of guesswork. With this in mind i think we have to accept that most of the witness timings could easily be a few minutes out. As for Mrs Mortimer what do you find to do hanging around your front door for half an hour?(unless she was also looking for business), and if she saw nothing unusual what of Strides scuffle, or Schwartz running off followed by clay pipe man?

Separate post because it’s a separate topic but does anyone hear alarm bells ringing everytime Schwartz is discussed in detail?

Shouting “Lipski” loud enough for the Pipe man to hear was the equivalent of shouting the word “******” outside a Baptist church in Alabama in 1968.
Why didn’t Krantz, Mrs D, the servant girl, who’s name temporarily escapes me, and all the those in the dining room, hear it?

Why didn’t Mrs Mortimer hear it?

Why didn’t the young girl and her sweetheart hear it or see BS and Schwartz?

Why didn’t Brown mention the Pipeman who he would have to push past or for that matter why didn’t the chandler?

Something is just not right. If Schwarz was lying or more likely, got his timing wrong (how did he know the exact time anyway?) then it makes more sense.

Thanks for your time.

Because it wasnt a scream, it was an exclamation, and we know it occurred before Fanny was spending more time consistently at her doorway... being the last 10 minutes or so before 1am, Pipeman was said to be smoking at the entrance to an alley across the street and left before Fanny would have seen him, I believe the young woman and her man friend were never found nor interviewed, so who knows what they may have heard, and Mrs D and others were doing clean-up/wash-up, and may not have heard anything over the clatter of pots or dishes, and the moving of furniture.

Why didnt the cottagers hear? Why didnt Lave? Why didnt Eagle see Lave in the yard at 12:40?

Instead of wondering about Schwartz, perhaps wonder about the people who would be in trouble if a murder on the property was thought to be committed by a member. Who has the impetus to lie?

Regards.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello Glenn, Jon, Dusty and all,

Yes referring to Jon's post, no need to re-copy it. As you say, Glenn, this does help to explain why no other person saw the incident. As to your next point, the problem that none of them saw Stride on the street, I don't view that as a problem.

No Toy,
I disagree. To me it's a problem, and again it all comes down to Mrs Mortimer and possibly Charles Letchford's sister who stood outside during the period and saw or heard no one. I can't get around that.

All the best

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Perry,

...Morris Eagle...

No, I don't suspect him in the murder.

Kindly,

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

That's quite possible, Jon, and could to some degree explain why no other person saw the incident.
But you still have the problem with the fact that none of them saw Stride on the street before the incident, none of them saw BS leaving the scene.
So it isn't enough to explain why none of the witnesses saw the incident, but also why they didn't see ANYONE entering or leaving the yard before or after the incident.

Hello Glenn, Jon, Dusty and all,

Yes referring to Jon's post, no need to re-copy it. As you say, Glenn, this does help to explain why no other person saw the incident. As to your next point, the problem that none of them saw Stride on the street, I don't view that as a problem. Her body was found where it was found. She had to get there from the street. As to no one seeing Schwartz's man leave, welll no one in Ripper study has ever solved that. It all comes back to Schwartz's observation. The sighting right there at the entrance to the yard, the struggle, the three faint cries, shout of Lipski, Schwartz and Pipeman leave, and the murder.

Roy

Having re-read the various accounts, my take would be that "gateway" is specific enough, as is inside the yard or gates, and a "footway" is used to refer to the sidewalk, that wasnt what we would imagine in todays terms, but just a slightly elevated cobblestone "pathway" at the side of the road.

The more I envision Liz waiting by the gates, if Eagles and Lave's accounts of the yards occupancy at 12:40am is accurate, the more I think she was waiting for someone still inside...or someone that left, returned, and went inside via the side door.

"Just wait here a few minutes my dear, I must say goodnight to some people inside. I shan't dally."

Liz smiles, nods, and as her companion goes inside, she takes out her cashous.

I think its possible Liz was to meet Morris Eagle, one of that nights speakers, after he left to drop off his lady friend when the meeting ended. It would explain his return to the club,... if the front door to the club wasnt locked, it would explain why he used the side door..Liz was there by the gates, and it would explain why a man who claims to be sickened at the sight of blood might tumble quickly down the stairs when he hears a woman has been found dead in the yard, with her throat savagely cut.

Best regards.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello

I will try to show why I think the whole Schwartz episode took place in the gateway, and not out on the street.

The Star version : The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage

The Police version : The man tried to pull the woman into the street,but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway.

Now, it had to have happened in the gateway as Mrs Mortimer was standing at her door from 12.45 to 12.55 and saw Goldstein only.
Charles Letchford`s sister also stood in her doorway at around 12.50 and saw nothing.

Also, if we consider all the to- ing and fro-ing in the yard, the only time that it could have happened was between 12.45 and 12.55 as no-one was in the yard.

The witnesses dictate that it happened in the yard ( where her body was found !!! )

That's quite possible, Jon, and could to some degree explain why no other person saw the incident.
But you still have the problem with the fact that none of them saw Stride on the street before the incident, none of them saw BS leaving the scene.
So it isn't enough to explain why none of the witnesses saw the incident, but also why they didn't see ANYONE entering or leaving the yard before or after the incident.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Separate post because it’s a separate topic but does anyone hear alarm bells ringing everytime Schwartz is discussed in detail?

Shouting “Lipski” loud enough for the Pipe man to hear was the equivalent of shouting the word “******” outside a Baptist church in Alabama in 1968.
Why didn’t Krantz, Mrs D, the servant girl, who’s name temporarily escapes me, and all the those in the dining room, hear it?

Why didn’t Mrs Mortimer hear it?

Why didn’t the young girl and her sweetheart hear it or see BS and Schwartz?

Why didn’t Brown mention the Pipeman who he would have to push past or for that matter why didn’t the chandler?

Something is just not right. If Schwarz was lying or more likely, got his timing wrong (how did he know the exact time anyway?) then it makes more sense.

Exactly. I couldn't agree - all good points.