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This thread was inspired by a comment from Doc on the Kelly Timeline thread.
Was Caroline Maxwell wrong? Philip Sugden was convinced of it:
The testimony of Mrs Maxwell is an unanswered riddle. Was she lying, drunk, or simply mistaken? On the first occasion she supposedly saw Mary, at 8.30, they conversed across the street. On the second Mary was standing about twenty-five yards away. At either distance Mrs Maxwell should have been able to recognize Mary and it seems more likely that she confused the date than the person. Whatever the answer, all we can say for certain is that her testimony was wrong.
Was she though?
Dr Phillips arrived at Miller’s Court at around 11.15 (Sugden said that he’d arrived at 10.45) said that she had been dead some 5 or 6 hours - so 4.45-5.45.
Dr Bond didn’t see the body until 2.00pm. Rigor was setting in, which he said normally occurred after 6-12 hours after death - 2.00am-8am
When we look at the two dissenting witnesses, Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell we see that Lewis said that he first saw Mary leave her room at 8.00 and return a few moments later which ties in with Mary telling Maxwell (at 8.00-8.30) that she had just been for a drink. Then we have Caroline seeing Mary outside The Britannia at 8.45 with the coincidence of Lewis claiming to have seen her in The Britannia drinking in a group at 10.00.
That she was drinking at 10.00 but was then found in her room, in the state that she was discovered in, just 45 minutes later, isn’t possible.
Caroline Maxwell gave her testimony on the day of the murder so the suggestion that she might have got the day wrong doesn’t sound particularly likely to me. She set the time by her husband finishing his work as a lodging house deputy. A bit of leeway should always be allowed, and Caroline herself gives 30 minutes, so it’s difficult to see how she could have been signification further out in her time. It’s possible that she had consulted her husband as to the time and he had given her an incorrect one (maybe it was 7.00 instead of 8.00?)
The suggestion that the body wasn’t Mary has never carried any weight with me personally. Unless we get in conspiracy territory then Mary had no reason for keeping quiet when a body was found on her bed (she was hardly going to be suspected of the murder after all) One suggestion has been that she took advantage of the opportunity to ‘disappear’ to avoid her rent arrears but where would this penniless woman have gone and how could she have known that someone wouldn’t inform the police of this subterfuge? Would she have left her meagre possessions? Why hadn’t she ‘done a runner’ up until then?
The cry of ‘‘murder’’ is interesting but how significant was it? Sarah Lewis heard the cry at ‘nearly four’ which sounded “at our door.” She was across the court, to the left of Kelly’s room, and upstairs. Elizabeth Prater heard a cry at 3.30-3.45 (so no issue on times) but she lived directly above Mary and felt that the cry came from the court. Surely she would have known it if it had emanated from the room directly beneath her own? It seems likely that there was a cry of murder but are we just assuming that it was Mary? As far as we know, none of the other victims had cried out so is it really likely that the killer would have allowed Mary to call out; potentially trapping him in that room? Also, being in doors, and with Mary lying on the bed, how much easier for him to have strangled her into silence before proceeding. Whatever time Mary was actually killed I’m wary of accepting the cry of “murder” as coming from Mary.
Bond gives 2.00-8.00. We know the unreliability of the methods of fixing a ToD and how often would the doctors have experience a corpse so horrendously treated as Mary was, adding to the uncertainty. And then if we consider the possibility of Mrs Maxwell getting an incorrect time from her husband (maybe she was an hour out and had seen Mary at 7.00-7.30?)
Perhaps the most difficult question is, how could Maurice Lewis have supposedly seen her in The Britannia at 10.00?
I’m not supporting any theory or claiming to know the truth because I don’t but my question is…are we too quick to dismiss the testimony of Caroline Maxwell?
Was Caroline Maxwell wrong? Philip Sugden was convinced of it:
The testimony of Mrs Maxwell is an unanswered riddle. Was she lying, drunk, or simply mistaken? On the first occasion she supposedly saw Mary, at 8.30, they conversed across the street. On the second Mary was standing about twenty-five yards away. At either distance Mrs Maxwell should have been able to recognize Mary and it seems more likely that she confused the date than the person. Whatever the answer, all we can say for certain is that her testimony was wrong.
Was she though?
Dr Phillips arrived at Miller’s Court at around 11.15 (Sugden said that he’d arrived at 10.45) said that she had been dead some 5 or 6 hours - so 4.45-5.45.
Dr Bond didn’t see the body until 2.00pm. Rigor was setting in, which he said normally occurred after 6-12 hours after death - 2.00am-8am
When we look at the two dissenting witnesses, Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell we see that Lewis said that he first saw Mary leave her room at 8.00 and return a few moments later which ties in with Mary telling Maxwell (at 8.00-8.30) that she had just been for a drink. Then we have Caroline seeing Mary outside The Britannia at 8.45 with the coincidence of Lewis claiming to have seen her in The Britannia drinking in a group at 10.00.
That she was drinking at 10.00 but was then found in her room, in the state that she was discovered in, just 45 minutes later, isn’t possible.
Caroline Maxwell gave her testimony on the day of the murder so the suggestion that she might have got the day wrong doesn’t sound particularly likely to me. She set the time by her husband finishing his work as a lodging house deputy. A bit of leeway should always be allowed, and Caroline herself gives 30 minutes, so it’s difficult to see how she could have been signification further out in her time. It’s possible that she had consulted her husband as to the time and he had given her an incorrect one (maybe it was 7.00 instead of 8.00?)
The suggestion that the body wasn’t Mary has never carried any weight with me personally. Unless we get in conspiracy territory then Mary had no reason for keeping quiet when a body was found on her bed (she was hardly going to be suspected of the murder after all) One suggestion has been that she took advantage of the opportunity to ‘disappear’ to avoid her rent arrears but where would this penniless woman have gone and how could she have known that someone wouldn’t inform the police of this subterfuge? Would she have left her meagre possessions? Why hadn’t she ‘done a runner’ up until then?
The cry of ‘‘murder’’ is interesting but how significant was it? Sarah Lewis heard the cry at ‘nearly four’ which sounded “at our door.” She was across the court, to the left of Kelly’s room, and upstairs. Elizabeth Prater heard a cry at 3.30-3.45 (so no issue on times) but she lived directly above Mary and felt that the cry came from the court. Surely she would have known it if it had emanated from the room directly beneath her own? It seems likely that there was a cry of murder but are we just assuming that it was Mary? As far as we know, none of the other victims had cried out so is it really likely that the killer would have allowed Mary to call out; potentially trapping him in that room? Also, being in doors, and with Mary lying on the bed, how much easier for him to have strangled her into silence before proceeding. Whatever time Mary was actually killed I’m wary of accepting the cry of “murder” as coming from Mary.
Bond gives 2.00-8.00. We know the unreliability of the methods of fixing a ToD and how often would the doctors have experience a corpse so horrendously treated as Mary was, adding to the uncertainty. And then if we consider the possibility of Mrs Maxwell getting an incorrect time from her husband (maybe she was an hour out and had seen Mary at 7.00-7.30?)
Perhaps the most difficult question is, how could Maurice Lewis have supposedly seen her in The Britannia at 10.00?
I’m not supporting any theory or claiming to know the truth because I don’t but my question is…are we too quick to dismiss the testimony of Caroline Maxwell?
Herlock Sholmes
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