An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Are you immune to the concept of someone making an error?

You need to be careful who you are attributing text to. Most of the text you have quoted was of c.d. quoting TRD.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It is clearly BS man who ‘stopped’ and was ‘level with the gateway.’ Schwartz was behind BS man on the same side of the road but an unknown distance behind him.

Israel Schwartz is the subject of the sentence. The reaching of the gateway pertains to him.

Abberline used the word ‘stopped’ but we have no record of Schwartz using this and, in my opinion, it was just an inaccurate figure of speech.

As we have no record of anything Schwartz was quoted as saying, this is disingenuous.
So, in corresponding with the Home Office, it is your humble opinion that Abberline used an inaccurate figure of speech. Right.

[The Rookie Detective]

Why do we need to overcomplicate? The suggestion that Schwartz attended the inquest came from one person. There is no record of him attending the inquest. Answer - the person that mentioned his attendance was mistaken. He made an incorrect assumption.

That's a very important point that you make.

Whomever mentioned his attendance at the inquest to give evidence, was indeed mistaken.


That individual wasn't able to get the basics right and appears to claim that Schwartz's evidence was heard at the inquest, when it clearly wasn't.


I wouldn't trust the judgement of the man who couldn't even get the basics right, and i would then question other potential key errors made by that same person at other times throughout the case.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It only ‘doesn’t’ work if you believe that all times need to be accepted as being synchronised. If you allow some leeway on times, which has to be done if you take a serious approach, then there are no issues. We just have to accept that these times weren’t exact.

If you can prove that Schwartz’s 12.45 was the same as Brown’s then I’ll grant that an issue exists. But you can’t, so there isn’t one.

So, you accept that things don't work with the times as is - you need to call on your leeway to make it all work. It's interesting how this leeway always goes the 'right' way. In some press accounts, James Brown is returning from the shop at 12:45, rather than heading toward it. That leaves even less time to squeeze everything in. Reasonable margins-of-error in witness times go in both directions, not just to whatever's convenient.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So why didn't Bs man hear Schwartz, and why did Bs man choose to assault Stride at the exact time he did?


Based on the above, it may be the case whereby Schwartz is walking on the opposite side of the road, rather than on the same side.

This would seem odd if Schwartz had turned into Berner Street from the west of Commerical Road, but would work if Schwartz had come from the east and then turned left into Berner Street.


But if he was on the same side of the road as Bs man and Stride, then why did Bs man then assault her just as Schwartz reached the gateway?


That makes no sense whatsoever.

Not only that, but there is no interaction between the woman and Schwartz. She is being assaulted, and he is right there. She says nothing to him, and he offers nothing to her. It's just weird.

But if Schwartz was already on the opposite side of the road, and then as he reaches level with the gateway, he glances over the road to observe Bs man stop and engage with Stride momentarily before BS man launches as assault on her, then that may explain why the assailant didn't hear or notice Schwartz until AFTER he had assaulted Stride.

Right. Starting Schwartz from the opposite side of the street can solve at least one problem, probably more.

But based on Bs man appearing to stop, talk and then assault Stride all in a matter of a few seconds, it begs the question; had Bs man spoken to Stride earlier/before Schwartz turns into the street?

Based on Pipeman's location and the chance that the 2 men could have been companions; it seems possible that BS man had already spoken to Stride but then had walked off angered by her response. He then turns to have a 2nd go at Stride with the intention of assaulting her and teaching her a lesson. But he turns back just as Schwartz turns into the street.

Schwartz only sees Bs man stop and talk to her, but the assailant may have indeed already tried his luck earlier. Something must have made him angry, and there seems no time for Bs amn to have escalated to an assault so quickly; based on Schwartz's account.

What is Pipeman's location? The doorway of the pub that had closed no later than midnight?

You might recall that I've argued that the second man (Pipeman) came from Hampshire Court. You argued recently that Schwartz doesn't see BS Man until he is almost at the gates himself, with the first man now just ahead of him. So, assuming Schwartz came down the East/school side of the street, had the first man himself come from that court? Perhaps the men had both been at the Red Lion on Batty St. Not sure how late it would have been open.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi George.

For now, I'll ask a similar question as the one above: Why not accept what the police are telling us about Schwartz stopping? What problem are you trying you trying to solve by replacing this with, at most, a momentary pause?

Why not go with Swanson who doesn’t mention stopping?
Why not go with The Star who doesn’t mention stopping?
Why not view the likelihood of him stopping in light of his preceding behaviour - scarpering?

You are, yet again, quite deliberately trying to make this incident last longer than it actually could have (just as Michael used to try and stretch the time between Diemschitz finding the body and him going for a PC) because you have an ongoing agenda to create a mystery (something that you have form for) You are trying to reduce the subject to a spy novel with your approach. We KNOW what happened with Schwartz because he told us.

He walked along Berner Street with BS man an unknown distance in front of him. An incident began and so Schwartz, who naturally wanted to avoid getting close, crossed over the road and continued passing the incident. As he gets to the other side he sees Pipeman (neither he nor us know where he came from though it’s possible that he stopped in the doorway of the beer house to enable him to light his pipe) Schwartz kept looking across, probably in glances (hoping not to antagonise the man) but the man sees him looking and calls out ‘Lipski’. Schwartz leaves the scene. We don’t know what happened in Berner Street next.

No one lied. Errors in witness testimony are always possible.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Andrew,

I tend to agree with cd's later post in that a lot can be lost or mis-interpreted in translation. My interpretation is that when Schwartz turned into Berner St he noticed a man, who was perhaps a little tipsy, walking down the street in front of him. Due to the man's condition he may have gained on him, but I interpret what he said as when the man reached the gateway rather than when he (Schwartz) reached the gateway. A confrontation occurred between the man and a woman standing in the gateway. IMO, Stride was not thrown to the ground, but pulled away from the attempt to pull her into the street, overbalanced and fell. I see the "three screams that were not very loud" as a translation error for some protestation and I do not believe that Stride, at that stage felt herself in danger.

I think that Schwartz was still some yards from the incident and, if he paused at all, it was only momentarily. IMO he then crossed diagonally and proceeded to walk southward on the eastern side of the road. The scale of the situation is deceptive. Having crossed the road diagonally he is only seconds, not minutes from the intersection. He notices Pipeman and a few seconds later, as he is about to step off the kerb in Fairclough St, turns to see the source of a further commotion at the yard. At this stage he and Pipeman are about equidistant from BSMan. There is a conflict here in reports of whether BSMan shouted "Lipski" at one or the other of the men at the intersection, or whether Pipeman shouted a warning to or at BSMan. At that stage Schwartz decided he had had enough of the situation and removed himself in an expeditious manner.

That's how I see it. YMMV.

Cheers, George

Exactly George. And you’ve come to that conclusion by reading the lines and not in between them as Andrew is doing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Once we read Abberline stating that Schwartz stopped, there is no leeway.

... I am of opinion it [Lipski] was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

Why hurl an insult after Schwartz crosses the street, going away from the gateway, after Schwartz had been at the gateway watching? It makes little sense. However, if he calls the insult when Schwartz approaches, it makes more sense, as does Abberline's reason for supposing it was called to Schwartz, and not Pipeman.

So BS man calls out an insult to the man (who soon scurried off home) and what is that man’s immediate action according to you? He crosses the road and stands directly in front of the man who has just threatened him to spectate on what’s going on.

You have jumped on one word from Abberline which doesn’t fit with the Swanson version or The Star version. The word ‘stopped’ is a red herring. Schwartz clearly didn’t stop because it would have made no sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I also find it bizarre that there's a seemingly random reference to Schwartz's evidence being heard at the inquest.
If it was, then he certainly didn't give it in person.

If' that's the case, then he must have seen the murderer and/or the murder, and was shielded by the police from attending the inquest in person.



The more fundamental question is, did Schwartz give evidence at the inquest?

Are you immune to the concept of someone making an error?

[Herlock Sholmes]

What is the exact wording of Schwartz's statement regarding his proximity to the gateway?

c.d.

A very valid point c.d.

Andrew said this:

.
Neither Schwartz's statement nor his inquest testimony survives, as you know. All we have is Swanson's report and later comments from Abberline.

... turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Schwartz made it very clear, by placing himself level with the gateway, that he knows exactly where the incident occurred. Could Schwartz have observed the fracas from the same footway that Liz was thrown onto, or was he across the street at the time?

Think about this - the man ill-using the woman calls 'Lipski' just after Schwartz is crossing the road and sees the second man. Why bother with the intruding Jew, if he is walking away from the gateway? Is it because our supposedly timid and frightened witness is actually crossing toward the gateway, and thus the first man, and not away from him as has always been supposed?

It is clearly BS man who ‘stopped’ and was ‘level with the gateway.’ Schwartz was behind BS man on the same side of the road but an unknown distance behind him. We have know way of knowing how far behind he was when BS man stopped to talk to the woman - a few feet, 10 yards, 5 yards, but as he saw that this was a confrontation he crossed the road. Again, we don’t know how far behind he was when he crossed to the opposite side of the road but he certainly couldn’t have been level with the gateway because that’s where BS man and the woman were. So he crossed and passed by (no doubt glimpsing across at the incident) Abberline used the word ‘stopped’ but we have no record of Schwartz using this and, in my opinion, it was just an inaccurate figure of speech. Schwartz doesn’t sound like a particularly heroic kind of man. More the ‘scurrying home’ type in my opinion.

But you knew all of the above anyway c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Blood has been removed from the stone.

I realise that the difficulty with this issue is that, for many of us, admitting that Schwartz stopped has the potential to wreak havoc with preferred timelines, and even threaten the viability of Schwartz's story. However, his stopping at the level of the gateway has other implications, unrelated to time. I discuss these in #203. I believe that post answers several questions about the incident. If anyone disagrees with those answers, please explain and perhaps offer alternatives.

You are making this up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I also find it bizarre that there's a seemingly random reference to Schwartz's evidence being heard at the inquest.
If it was, then he certainly didn't give it in person.

If' that's the case, then he must have seen the murderer and/or the murder, and was shielded by the police from attending the inquest in person.



The more fundamental question is, did Schwartz give evidence at the inquest?

Unless they forgot to publish his testimony….no.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If the police stated his evidence was heard at the inquest, but there's no record of him attending, then there is a conflict there that needs explaining.

He either didn't attend; meaning his evidence wasn't heard in 1st person
Or he did attend and gave evidence.

There's no evidence of the latter.

And so if he didn't attend the inquest, but the police stated his evidence was heard there; then we have a puzzle to unravel there.

Either someone else (the police) told the inquest of a man who witnessed an assault but thought it was a domestic, or his evidence wasn't heard at all.

If it wasn't heard, then it doesn't explain why it wasn't considering what Schwartz claimed he saw.

In other words, he should have been the key witness.

So either his evidence amounted to nothing and wasn't considered relevant to the official inquest into her death, or the police needed to shield him from attending in person.

He was either important, or he wasn't.

If he was important then there's no reason why he couldn't attend IF the police were correct in stating that his evidence WAS heard at the inquest.

So either the police were lying about his evidence being heard at the inquest, or they were telling the truth, but needed to keep Schwartz from physically attending in person.

Hope that explains the reasoning to my point.

Why do we need to overcomplicate? The suggestion that Schwartz attended the inquest came from one person. There is no record of him attending the inquest. Answer - the person that mentioned his attendance was mistaken. He made an incorrect assumption.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If not, it was the couple referred to in #174. Take your pick and adjust your timeline accordingly. Brown did not see a man being pursued at 12:45, or a man standing at the door of the Nelson, and Eagle did not see a woman standing in the gateway at 12:40. By the time Brown exits the chandler's shop, the couple are there and claim to have heard no unusual noises.

I'm sure you can make it work.

It only ‘doesn’t’ work if you believe that all times need to be accepted as being synchronised. If you allow some leeway on times, which has to be done if you take a serious approach, then there are no issues. We just have to accept that these times weren’t exact.

If you can prove that Schwartz’s 12.45 was the same as Brown’s then I’ll grant that an issue exists. But you can’t, so there isn’t one.

[The Rookie Detective]

If we look at things from the other way around; at what point did Bs man notice Schwartz?


I would imagine it very unlikely that he was aware of Schwartz BEFORE the assault occurred.


Nowadays, it wouldn't be surprising for a 13 year old boy to randomly stab someone in the street in broad daylight and in front of multiple witnesses.


But in 1888, it would be unlikely for a man to openly assault a woman in front of a man who was walking down the street.


Unless of course, BS man was drunk i.e. he wasn't aware that Schwartz was there at all until after he had thrown Stride to the floor.


If he was drunk, then he wasn't the Ripper.



But if he wasn't drunk, then it would seem unrealistic for him to wait until Schwartz was level with the gateway before choosing to assault Stride.


It is almost certain therefore, that when BS man stopped to talk to Stride, he was unaware of Schwartz's presence, that is despite Schwartz being only yards away as he reached level with the gateway.


That shows that BS man was facing Stride and his attention away from the Jew approaching from the north.


But that doesn't explain why Bs man didn't HEAR Schwartz approaching.


An openly aggressive assault on a woman in the street with a witness no more than 10 yards away, is not indicative of a cold callous killer who then goes on to silently dispatch his victim with one clean deep cut.


So why didn't Bs man hear Schwartz, and why did Bs man choose to assault Stride at the exact time he did?


Based on the above, it may be the case whereby Schwartz is walking on the opposite side of the road, rather than on the same side.

This would seem odd if Schwartz had turned into Berner Street from the west of Commerical Road, but would work if Schwartz had come from the east and then turned left into Berner Street.


But if he was on the same side of the road as Bs man and Stride, then why did Bs man then assault her just as Schwartz reached the gateway?


That makes no sense whatsoever.


But if Schwartz was already on the opposite side of the road, and then as he reaches level with the gateway, he glances over the road to observe Bs man stop and engage with Stride momentarily before BS man launches as assault on her, then that may explain why the assailant didn't hear or notice Schwartz until AFTER he had assaulted Stride.

What's crucial is that Schwartz mentions that he sees the man STOP and talk to her.

He doesn't say he sees a man already talking with her as he reaches level with the gateway.


So from this we can assume that BS man was walking and THEN stopped to engage with Stride.


Based on Schwartz's statement, we can see that he sees Bs man stop first before talking to Stride.

And seeing as Bs man never noticed Schwartz, it's more likely that BS man walking in the same direction as Schwartz i.e. with his back to him the whole time.


But based on Bs man appearing to stop, talk and then assault Stride all in a matter of a few seconds, it begs the question; had Bs man spoken to Stride earlier/before Schwartz turns into the street?

Based on Pipeman's location and the chance that the 2 men could have been companions; it seems possible that BS man had already spoken to Stride but then had walked off angered by her response. He then turns to have a 2nd go at Stride with the intention of assaulting her and teaching her a lesson. But he turns back just as Schwartz turns into the street.

Schwartz only sees Bs man stop and talk to her, but the assailant may have indeed already tried his luck earlier. Something must have made him angry, and there seems no time for Bs amn to have escalated to an assault so quickly; based on Schwartz's account.


Lots to unravel here