An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[GBinOz]

It's almost as though Schwartz never even existed in the first place.

Swanson's mission on trying to push the killer having been a Jew by the assailant shouting "Lipski" outside a Jewish club, based on the belief that a gentile wouldn't have the balls to do so.

Imagine if an imaginary Schwartz and the GSG were both ruses to oust the real killer?

Or to put a Jewish killer into the spotlight, in a bid to cover for a deviant high-ranking copper with a penchant for carving up unfortunates?


Smoke and mirrors.


"Kosminski" was the suspect.


I call bull""""




RD

Hi RD,

Someone identifying himself as "Schwartz" made a statement to the police. While Herlock and I are often on opposing sides, I have to agree with his assessment on the unlikelihood of someone frivolously involving themselves in a murder investigation. I don't believe his existence can be denied. His motivation is another subject, but my inclination is that he was a genuine witness.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The question therefore is; if Mortimer told the truth about seeing a man with a black bag, then when did she observe him?

Well, based on the times above, Goldstein could have only been passing at either...

12.41-12.44am or 12.46am-12.58am

in other words, Mortimer's evidence proves that Goldstein could NOT have been Schwartz.... because if she saw Schwartz, she would have seen Bs Man also, and possibly Pipeman.

So, Goldstein could not have been Schwartz, because Mortimer did not see two men whose existence was never verified?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We can get a reasonable estimate for how long the Schwartz event lasted.

No, we cannot.

How long was Stride supposedly standing at the gateway, before Schwartz turned into the street?

What happened after Schwartz left Berner St, and over what timespan?

We can limit ourselves to the point of view of Schwartz, or we take a more holistic view.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's interesting that Schwartz never appeared at the inquest.

Consider this ...

I look with some suspicion at the fact that the inquest was held on Oct 1,2 3 and 5, with the summary on the 23rd. I wonder about why Oct 4 was apparently skipped, unless of course this was a day that was used to conduct an in camera testimony from Schwartz. But this amounts to nothing more than suspicion.

It's a good question that George asks, but is he right to say there is nothing to back up his suspicion? What are we to make of the following?

Robert Anderson: I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwartz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride’s case is that the name Lipski which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berner St. on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself.

Are we sure, really, really, 100% sure that Israel Schwartz did not attend the inquest?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's almost as though Schwartz never even existed in the first place.

You're not the first to have wondered that.

Hi Rob

Bearing in mind the total lack of reference to him, in what is after all the most contemporary and relevant work, and in the following issue too, did Schwartz even exist?

Dave

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi RD,

Someone identifying himself as "Schwartz" made a statement to the police.

Precisely!

While Herlock and I are often on opposing sides, I have to agree with his assessment on the unlikelihood of someone frivolously involving themselves in a murder investigation. I don't believe his existence can be denied. His motivation is another subject, but my inclination is that he was a genuine witness.

Cheers, George

George, if you refer to "Schwartz" with scare quotes, whose existence cannot be denied?

[New Waterloo]

Mortimer sees a man with a black shiny bag. I think this can be accepted as fact as there would be no reason to suggest she would make it up.

Mortimer does not know the person. He is walking ver fast on the opposite side of the road to her house and looks at the club when walking by fast.

Wess and Leon Goldsmith SUGGEST to the police and Press that the person is Leon Goldsttein a member of the club.

Wess only has Goldsteins word on this as he (Wess) was not there.

Mortimer becomes aware like everyone that Goldstein is the man she saw. She cannot confirm it was Goldstein. She does not know Goldstein.

Goldstein states he was the man that Mortimer saw. He cannot confirm this. How would he know it was him.

Someone did suggest Mortimer and Goldsmith looked at each other which would seal the job so to speak and give that confirmation.

The only thing Goldstein can confirm through his statement is what he actually said about his walking through the street. I am not sure we have any details about what he said from either Press or Police.

I think he was real and he was likely the person Mortimer saw but we cannot confirm this with the information we have other than the man Mortimer saw had a black bag.

Unless we have more info so we can be sure.

i dont think there is a conspiracy (well no evidence at the moment) and he was just trying to help by saying it was him.

i hope you understand what i am getting at as I am beginning to confuse myself!!

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Israel Schwartz was interviewed by Abberline. Therefore he existed. Every second discussing whether he existed or not is a second wasted.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps Wess returned to the club that morning (after sunrise), ignorant of what had occurred during the night, and just happened to come across a man walking his dog, and who knew and told him all about the incident, because he just happened to be Israel Schwartz. Is that what you mean by Schwartz telling Wess directly, but the two men otherwise having no 'connection'?

.

I don’t consider anyone as ‘having a connection’ just because they might have spoken on one occasion. And in this case they might not even have communicated directly.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was just that time 12:45 or a few minutes after 1am?

Does Wess mention people (plural) running up Fairclough St, or just one man chasing the supposed murderer?

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street ...

You’re simply confirming why Wess is unimportant. He heard something from someone a mixed up what he’d heard.

Approx 12.45 - Schwartz saw the incident.
Approx 1.00 - Diemschitz found the body.
Approx 1.02 - Diemschitz and Koz ran for a Constable.

There is no mystery. Unless you invent one of course.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

The frustration of when you spend 45 minutes constructing a post that you feel is worthy of everyone reading...and then it somehow deletes as you try and post it.

If i had the money for a replacement, I would gladly smash my laptop to bits right now.

Livid

I hate tech more than I can put into words.

Hi RD,

Same thing has happened to me online. It's freaking devastating. Here's what I do now:

If I've typed out a long post, I Select All and Copy, then Paste entire entry into a SEPARATE online notepad, then hit Publish. That way, if the evil 0s and 1s try to slay me, I have a backup copy to try posting again.

I trust online Publish/Post Reply buttons as much as Jack with a knife.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

If we extrapolate this sceen and put it on a street today housing a nosy neighbour, that nosy neighbour will know the details of anyone late a night passing by. Especially, if two doors down is a rollicking party going on.

Fanny's details: take them to the bank.That chick is Berner Street's nosy neighbour.

Fanny could probably recite chapter and verse on every soul who passed by her door when the Working Men's club had their Saturday do.

Of course, the Bag Man is not Jack.
Doesn't stop Fanny from memorizing the guy.
Aberline should have drafted her in plain clothes duty.

[JeffHamm]

No, we cannot.

How long was Stride supposedly standing at the gateway, before Schwartz turned into the street?

What happened after Schwartz left Berner St, and over what timespan?

We can limit ourselves to the point of view of Schwartz, or we take a more holistic view.

Yes, we can. How long Stride was at the gateway before the start of the Schwartz event is not part of the Schwartz event.

And, as I mention, if one considers Schwartz leaving the location of Berner' Street the "end" then it lasts about 1m 32s. But if you consider B.S. also leaving Berner' Street, then you need to make assumptions about what B.S. does and which direction he went, and add in that time too.

The duration of what Schwartz describes, including B.S.leaving the area would be between 1m 50s and about 3m.

So in trying to understand the whole timeline, one has a 1m 50s to 3m puzzle piece to work with that gets referred to as the Schwartz event

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

For me the length of the ‘Schwartz incident’ can only be the duration of the occurrence that Schwartz witnessed. Therefore, it began at moment BS man ran into Stride and ended when Schwartz left the street. So I would estimate the duration of the Schwartz incident at around 20 seconds or so.

If we include entering Berner Street then we have Jeff’s 1m 32s time.

[Lewis C]

I’m not suggesting that Fanny Mortimer was a liar because I have no reason to, but we might ask which is the likelier?

a) A man lies and falsely places himself at the scene of a knife murder and, because he was never there, he had no one to confirm that he wasn’t involved in that murder. Added to this we can think of no sensible reason why he might have told such a lie.

b) A woman, whether mistakenly or deliberately, exaggerated the amount of time that she was on her step that night.


And, I’d refer everyone to this post by Jeff on how poor we are at estimating periods of time.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ion#post851477

Hi Herlock. I would add that in one account of Fanny's statement, she said she was at her door nearly the whole time. In another, she said it was for about 10 minutes. If the 10 minutes account is the more accurate one, that would make it even easier to account for Fanny not seeing Schwartz.