Packer Again

[Doctored Whatsit]

Hi Doctored Whatsit,

Thanks for that!

Though PC Lamb didn't mention the grapestalk, working from memory only here, wasn't he reported as seeing grapes in Stride's hand?
If so, as a police officer, his assertion should carry some weight?

I'll look up this point later when I get time.

Inquest evidence: PC Lamb -Did you examine her hands? I did not, but I saw that her right arm was across the breast.

[Wickerman]

...

Though PC Lamb didn't mention the grapestalk, working from memory only here, wasn't he reported as seeing grapes in Stride's hand?
...

That was only Diemschutz & Kozebrowski, and if I recall, they were among the first two to see the body.
Stride's body was facing the wall, so all the witnesses were stood behind her, no-one could see if anything slipped out of her fingers to the cobbles as that was all in darkness.

[GBinOz]

That was only Diemschutz & Kozebrowski, and if I recall, they were among the first two to see the body.

Mortimer:
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.".

Probably a report rather than an observation.

[The Rookie Detective]

Mortimer:
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.".

Probably a report rather than an observation.

I'd say part observation and part report...

Observation made by Mortimer herself...
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes..."

followed by something she heard from another person...
..."and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets."

We can take from this statement that Mortimer saw the body first hand, but didn't see any grapes herself.

Otherwise she would have said "I saw" instead of "were found."

The grapes were not witnessed by Mortimer herself; despite her having seen Stride's clothing 1st hand; evidenced by "judging by her clothes."

[Doctored Whatsit]

I am inclined to agree with RD above, "appeared to me" refers to something she saw, and "were found" refers to something she was told or read about.

I think the Coroner was trying to establish the issue of the grapes in Stride's hand, because as well as the direct question to PC Lamb mentioned above in #76, Louis D, who was reported as seeing the grapes, was asked, "Did you notice her hands?" He replied, "I did not notice what position her hands were in". So he appears not to have seen her hands, and therefore not the grapes, despite the newspaper report.

[Wickerman]

I'd say part observation and part report...

Observation made by Mortimer herself...
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes..."

followed by something she heard from another person...
..."and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets."

We can take from this statement that Mortimer saw the body first hand, but didn't see any grapes herself.

Otherwise she would have said "I saw" instead of "were found."

The grapes were not witnessed by Mortimer herself; despite her having seen Stride's clothing 1st hand; evidenced by "judging by her clothes."

Quite correct Chris, which is why I left her out.
The fruit stains on Stride's handkerchief should not go unnoticed.

[Debra A]

I don't post here often but wanted to mention a couple of things found during research in case they are of interest in this discussion. Research has shown that the Harstein sisters were both married from 40b Berner Street in the stable yard in years spanning 1888. Their parents resided here. The sisters can be shown to be living there in Oct 1888 through those marriage records.
Eva's husband to be was named in Special branch records around the time as being a member of the Berner Street club.

Also, Grande and Bachelor were also involved in the breaking story of the bloody shirt left at Batty Street. The story naming their involvement broke on 10 Oct 1888, the earliest mention of the bloody shirt found so far.

[New Waterloo]

Morning. Debra A's research is really fascinating. Excellent.

On another note I think we have more to 'unpack' from Packers statements (forgive the pun)

I am not sure how from looking out of his house window he would have known from what direction the couple came. He says from the lower end of Back Church Lane. Would be interesting to know peoples opinion on that. I just cant see how that works. Maybe from the general direction of Back Church lane if he saw them walk around the Beer house corner. Or maybe he saw them emerge from the alley way that runs between Berner Street and Back Church Lane. Thinking about it that could be it

Also I don't think he makes any statement or uses any words to suggest that the man he sees is a member of the club. In fact he reinforces this by suggesting they stand listening to the music. This may seem obvious but important. He also suggests the man is not a manual workman type with the appearance of a clerk. (office type worker)

All of this we know but I am mentioning it because it really seems to reinforce the fact that the man is nothing to do with the club in my view. If he was a member they would have gone into the club wouldn't they?

NW

[mpriestnall]

Inquest evidence: PC Lamb -Did you examine her hands? I did not, but I saw that her right arm was across the breast.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I appreciate it.

[mpriestnall]

That was only Diemschutz & Kozebrowski, and if I recall, they were among the first two to see the body.
Stride's body was facing the wall, so all the witnesses were stood behind her, no-one could see if anything slipped out of her fingers to the cobbles as that was all in darkness.

Thanks Wicks again.

Martyn

[mpriestnall]

I don't post here often but wanted to mention a couple of things found during research in case they are of interest in this discussion. Research has shown that the Harstein sisters were both married from 40b Berner Street in the stable yard in years spanning 1888. Their parents resided here. The sisters can be shown to be living there in Oct 1888 through those marriage records.
Eva's husband to be was named in Special branch records around the time as being a member of the Berner Street club.

Also, Grande and Bachelor were also involved in the breaking story of the bloody shirt left at Batty Street. The story naming their involvement broke on 10 Oct 1888, the earliest mention of the bloody shirt found so far.

Hi Debra. Interesting info and thanks for sharing.