Packer Again

[mpriestnall]

I don't post here often but wanted to mention a couple of things found during research in case they are of interest in this discussion. Research has shown that the Harstein sisters were both married from 40b Berner Street in the stable yard in years spanning 1888. Their parents resided here. The sisters can be shown to be living there in Oct 1888 through those marriage records.
Eva's husband to be was named in Special branch records around the time as being a member of the Berner Street club.

Also, Grande and Bachelor were also involved in the breaking story of the bloody shirt left at Batty Street. The story naming their involvement broke on 10 Oct 1888, the earliest mention of the bloody shirt found so far.

Hi Debra. Interesting info and thanks for sharing.

[mpriestnall]

That was only Diemschutz & Kozebrowski, and if I recall, they were among the first two to see the body.
Stride's body was facing the wall, so all the witnesses were stood behind her, no-one could see if anything slipped out of her fingers to the cobbles as that was all in darkness.

Thanks Wicks again.

Martyn

[mpriestnall]

Inquest evidence: PC Lamb -Did you examine her hands? I did not, but I saw that her right arm was across the breast.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I appreciate it.

[New Waterloo]

Morning. Debra A's research is really fascinating. Excellent.

On another note I think we have more to 'unpack' from Packers statements (forgive the pun)

I am not sure how from looking out of his house window he would have known from what direction the couple came. He says from the lower end of Back Church Lane. Would be interesting to know peoples opinion on that. I just cant see how that works. Maybe from the general direction of Back Church lane if he saw them walk around the Beer house corner. Or maybe he saw them emerge from the alley way that runs between Berner Street and Back Church Lane. Thinking about it that could be it

Also I don't think he makes any statement or uses any words to suggest that the man he sees is a member of the club. In fact he reinforces this by suggesting they stand listening to the music. This may seem obvious but important. He also suggests the man is not a manual workman type with the appearance of a clerk. (office type worker)

All of this we know but I am mentioning it because it really seems to reinforce the fact that the man is nothing to do with the club in my view. If he was a member they would have gone into the club wouldn't they?

NW

[Debra A]

I don't post here often but wanted to mention a couple of things found during research in case they are of interest in this discussion. Research has shown that the Harstein sisters were both married from 40b Berner Street in the stable yard in years spanning 1888. Their parents resided here. The sisters can be shown to be living there in Oct 1888 through those marriage records.
Eva's husband to be was named in Special branch records around the time as being a member of the Berner Street club.

Also, Grande and Bachelor were also involved in the breaking story of the bloody shirt left at Batty Street. The story naming their involvement broke on 10 Oct 1888, the earliest mention of the bloody shirt found so far.

[Wickerman]

I'd say part observation and part report...

Observation made by Mortimer herself...
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes..."

followed by something she heard from another person...
..."and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets."

We can take from this statement that Mortimer saw the body first hand, but didn't see any grapes herself.

Otherwise she would have said "I saw" instead of "were found."

The grapes were not witnessed by Mortimer herself; despite her having seen Stride's clothing 1st hand; evidenced by "judging by her clothes."

Quite correct Chris, which is why I left her out.
The fruit stains on Stride's handkerchief should not go unnoticed.

[Doctored Whatsit]

I am inclined to agree with RD above, "appeared to me" refers to something she saw, and "were found" refers to something she was told or read about.

I think the Coroner was trying to establish the issue of the grapes in Stride's hand, because as well as the direct question to PC Lamb mentioned above in #76, Louis D, who was reported as seeing the grapes, was asked, "Did you notice her hands?" He replied, "I did not notice what position her hands were in". So he appears not to have seen her hands, and therefore not the grapes, despite the newspaper report.

[The Rookie Detective]

Mortimer:
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.".

Probably a report rather than an observation.

I'd say part observation and part report...

Observation made by Mortimer herself...
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes..."

followed by something she heard from another person...
..."and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets."

We can take from this statement that Mortimer saw the body first hand, but didn't see any grapes herself.

Otherwise she would have said "I saw" instead of "were found."

The grapes were not witnessed by Mortimer herself; despite her having seen Stride's clothing 1st hand; evidenced by "judging by her clothes."

[GBinOz]

That was only Diemschutz & Kozebrowski, and if I recall, they were among the first two to see the body.

Mortimer:
"The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.".

Probably a report rather than an observation.

[Wickerman]

...

Though PC Lamb didn't mention the grapestalk, working from memory only here, wasn't he reported as seeing grapes in Stride's hand?
...

That was only Diemschutz & Kozebrowski, and if I recall, they were among the first two to see the body.
Stride's body was facing the wall, so all the witnesses were stood behind her, no-one could see if anything slipped out of her fingers to the cobbles as that was all in darkness.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Hi Doctored Whatsit,

Thanks for that!

Though PC Lamb didn't mention the grapestalk, working from memory only here, wasn't he reported as seeing grapes in Stride's hand?
If so, as a police officer, his assertion should carry some weight?

I'll look up this point later when I get time.

Inquest evidence: PC Lamb -Did you examine her hands? I did not, but I saw that her right arm was across the breast.

[mpriestnall]

The next evidence gleaned by the detectives was that of a Mrs. Rosenfield and her sister, Miss Eva Harstein, both residing at 14 Berner street. Mrs. Rosenfield deposes that early on Sunday morning she passed the spot on which the body had lain, and observed on the ground close by a grape stalk stained with blood. Miss Eva Harstein gave corroborative evidence as to the finding of the grape stalk close to where the body lay. She also stated that, after the removal of the body of the murdered woman she saw a few small petals of a white natural flower lying quite close to the spot where the body had rested.
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881004.html

Hi Wicks!

I appreciate that reference. Cheers!

[mpriestnall]

Hi, the problem is that Packer's alleged sale of grapes, and all other mention of grapes and stalks seems to be linked in some way to Le Grand, and he seems to have been the person providing the newspapers with their stories. He was hired by the Telegraph and the Evening News. It is claimed that the sisters Harstein and Rosenfeld saw a blood stained grapestalk in the passageway entry to Dutfield's Yard, and also some white flower petals. Somehow none of the police noticed the bloodstained grapestalk! Packer claimed that Stride was wearing a flower like a geranium, red and white. Unfortunately, the police say she wore a red rose!

The police must have interviewed the sisters, but I can find no official trace of their account, which is why I have asked twice if anyone has any other information about them. Le Grand's criminal record makes him a dubious witness, and as Packer's story changed several times, and almost everything he did is linked to LeGrand, one must have reservations about their evidence. The doctors, of course, gave evidence that Stride had not eaten grapes.

I cannot disprove Packer's account, but I have very grave reservations about it!

Hi Doctored Whatsit,

Thanks for that!

Though PC Lamb didn't mention the grapestalk, working from memory only here, wasn't he reported as seeing grapes in Stride's hand?
If so, as a police officer, his assertion should carry some weight?

I'll look up this point later when I get time.

[Doctored Whatsit]

PC Smith's sighting 'proves' Packer's story about the man who was with Stride, at the same time, same place, also carrying a package.

Hi Jon, I think "proves" is a bit of an exaggeration. Although I accept your previous suggestion that Packer might well have put grapes in a newspaper, Smith's statement that the man carried a newspaper parcel about 18 inches long and 6 - 8 inches in width seems to indicate a rectangular item wrapped up, and not a much smaller item, rounded, and open at the top, as would probably have been the case with grapes which were being eaten. Packer said the man had a "soft felt hat, a kind of Yankee hat" whereas Smith said the man wore a " hard felt deerstalker".

I accept, as I always have, the possibility that there is some truth in Packer's story, but there are very strong reasons for my reservations, and on balance, I am very doubtful as to its accuracy.

Packer's first claim was that he saw no one just before he closed up, secondly, he saw the couple 12 - 12. 30 am, then thirdly, he altered this to 11 - 11. 30 pm. In view of Wm Marshall's statement that he was at the door 11 - 11. 30 pm and it didn't rain then, and his man had nothing in his hands, I assume you wish to consider Packer's second account, with the time of 12 - 12. 30 am as the more likely of the three, to line up with PC Smith timing. Smith said it rained very little after 11 o'clock, which allows some light drizzle after 12 perhaps, to back up Packer's statement about the couple standing around in the rain, although I believe that Stride's clothing was said to be dry, except for the mud.

We are wading through a lot of evidence, much of which is simply contradictory, and we have to reject some of it as unlikely or a mistake! We will all be likely to potentially reject different parts of the various accounts.

[Wickerman]

...I cannot disprove Packer's account, but I have very grave reservations about it!

PC Smith's sighting 'proves' Packer's story about the man who was with Stride, at the same time, same place, also carrying a package.