Packer Again

[New Waterloo]

Lots of thought. I agree with Herlock that it would be a strange thing for Packer to make up a fictitious description and story and then attempt to claim some sort of reward money with the help of Le Grand and Batchelor. Seems like a non starter to me. They would have to provide the whole story and description to Packer for him to digest and then present to the press etc.

More likely perhaps that Le Grand and Batchelor (hired by the WVC I think and I guess for a fee) spoke with Packer who told them the story about the couple and gave them the description. To test Packers evidence they took him to view the wrong body which he of course did not identify. Then later correctly identifying Stride.

Le Grand and Batchelor probably jumped for joy at such witness, a face to face description of the suspect and only a few feet from the murder scene. Bingo!!

The fact they were fraudsters and after making a quick buck embellished Packers tale stating that not only he had seen the suspect with Stride that he had also sold the man grapes for his shortly to be murdered lady friend and a stalk was discovered in the yard. You can see the headline 'JTR the evil fiend buys grapes for his lady friend before slitting her throat'

The police more than likely got very suspicious of all this and because of the reputation of Le Grand and Batchelor became cautious and didnt really follow up.

So an idea of what may have happened was an embellished story for greater effect but based on what Packer actually saw. I think I will stick to my opinion that Packer was not all lies. He saw something. In fact he could be a very important witness indeed.

NW

[DJA]

Not hired by WVC.

[Wickerman]

Stride was killed in the early hours of 30th September, and at 9 am later that morning, Packer and his household told Sgt White that no one was seen standing around Berner Street late the previous evening when he was closing up his shop.

In addition to the rewards already on offer, on the first of October Jas Fraser Commissioner of the City of London Police offered a reward of £500, and the lord mayor of London added another £500.

Le Grand and Batchelor were then all over the East End like a rash, providing the press with stories about blood-stained grape stalks, flower petals, grape stalks retrieved from the drains, the sisters Harstein and Rosenfeld, Packer selling the grapes, and then shielding Packer from the police so that they did everything, taking him to identify the body, alleging that they tested him by showing him Eddowes first, and then taking him to Scotland Yard to tell his story.

Just before leaving in the cab for Scotland Yard with Le Grand and Batchelor on October 4th, Packer told White the totally new story that he had sold grapes to Stride and a man at twelve, and had watched the couple till about 12. 30, completely changing his original story. A short cab journey later he told the same story, except that it became 11 to 11. 30 pm.

Some people think that this might be grounds for doubts as to reliability.

"Some people"?
Let me guess - at the top of the list may be the one who came up with the idea?

For the slow-minded here, would you mind explaining how finding grape stalks in the drain would lead to an arrest?
I hope we agree, the reward is only payable if the evidence leads to an arrest?
Wouldn't common sense dictate the discovery of a random grape stalk could lead anywhere?

How would the evidence you identify lead to the arrest of anyone, even Packer?

[Wickerman]

Lots of thought. I agree with Herlock that it would be a strange thing for Packer to make up a fictitious description and story and then attempt to claim some sort of reward money with the help of Le Grand and Batchelor. Seems like a non starter to me. They would have to provide the whole story and description to Packer for him to digest and then present to the press etc.

The description given by PC Smith was published on Monday 1st Oct.
Packer's description was given on Thurs. 4th Oct.

NW - The suspect description given by Packer differs on the coat and hat, outward details obvious to the eye.
If Packer was inventing a false story, why wouldn't he remember "no whiskers" or "collar & tie", but add "broad shoulders", when he should have said his build was "slight"?
If he is making up a story, he needs to use the same description that the police are looking for.

Packer's suspect:
...a young man from 25-30 about 5.7. with long black coat buttoned up – soft felt hat, kind of Yankee hat rather broad shoulders –
...I put the man down as a young clerk.
...He had a frock coat on – no gloves.
...He was about 1 ½ inch or 2 or 3 inches – a little higher than she was.

PC Smith's suspect (Parcel-man).
'' Age 28. Slight. Height 5ft. 8in. Complexion dark. No whiskers. Black diagonal coat. Hard felt hat. Collar and tie. Carried newspaper parcel. Respectable appearance.''

The differences between the two descriptions is either, they were different men - but as both would have been carrying a package, and both were with Stride around 12:30, that seem unlikely. Or, the differences were due to Packer's eyesight. We always assume the witness has 20-20 vision, Packer was in his 50's, he may have been near-sighted, so had trouble with distance vision.

So an idea of what may have happened was an embellished story for greater effect but based on what Packer actually saw. I think I will stick to my opinion that Packer was not all lies. He saw something. In fact he could be a very important witness indeed.

NW

Agreed.

[Doctored Whatsit]

"Some people"?
Let me guess - at the top of the list may be the one who came up with the idea?

For the slow-minded here, would you mind explaining how finding grape stalks in the drain would lead to an arrest?
I hope we agree, the reward is only payable if the evidence leads to an arrest?
Wouldn't common sense dictate the discovery of a random grape stalk could lead anywhere?

How would the evidence you identify lead to the arrest of anyone, even Packer?

Doubting Packer's reliability is fairly common. His follow-up stories hardly help him - about the man who looked like his suspect staring at him menacingly, and then fleeing, then the story of the men at his shop telling him they believed the suspect was their cousin, and then the murderer lived not far from Batty Street, and then two men knocked him down and put him in hospital for three weeks because he said he knew where JtR lived. He hardly helped himself appear credible.

The alleged finding of the grapestalks provided a direct link to the story about selling grapes, which meant that Packer's description could be regarded as relevant and considered helpful in the event of an arrest. Without the grapestalks his story had little to back it up.

One point I would be genuinely interested in developing if anyone has any knowledge about it, is the sisters Harstein and Rosenfeld's story. The detectives told it, and presumably they gave it to the newspapers, but despite its potential importance, I haven't found any reference of it in the police reports. The idea that the sisters saw a blood-stained grapestalk lying about in the open ground and which none of the police had noticed, is absolutely mind-boggling, and yet I see no reference to it in police reports. Surely the police must have interviewed the sisters. Does anyone have any more information about this?

[Wickerman]

...

The alleged finding of the grapestalks provided a direct link to the story about selling grapes, which meant that Packer's description could be regarded as relevant and considered helpful in the event of an arrest. Without the grapestalks his story had little to back it up.

Couldn't anyone have bought grapes and dropped a stalk?
It can hardly be tied to any specific customer, even if it were dropped that night. It could have been in the yard a couple of days, as such the stalk doesn't even corroborate Packer's story.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Couldn't anyone have bought grapes and dropped a stalk?
It can hardly be tied to any specific customer, even if it were dropped that night. It could have been in the yard a couple of days, as such the stalk doesn't even corroborate Packer's story.

The unconfirmed story of the bloodstained grapestalk suggests that Stride had grapes in her hands when she was killed. It seems very relevant to me.

[mpriestnall]

The unconfirmed story of the bloodstained grapestalk suggests that Stride had grapes in her hands when she was killed. It seems very relevant to me.

Hi Doctored Whatsit!

A bloodstained grapestalk is interesting. The idea that the grapestalk was bloodstained seemed to have passed me by.

Is there any newspaper or other sources for this though?

[Doctored Whatsit]

Hi Doctored Whatsit!

A bloodstained grapestalk is interesting. The idea that the grapestalk was bloodstained seemed to have passed me by.

Is there any newspaper or other sources for this though?

Hi, the problem is that Packer's alleged sale of grapes, and all other mention of grapes and stalks seems to be linked in some way to Le Grand, and he seems to have been the person providing the newspapers with their stories. He was hired by the Telegraph and the Evening News. It is claimed that the sisters Harstein and Rosenfeld saw a blood stained grapestalk in the passageway entry to Dutfield's Yard, and also some white flower petals. Somehow none of the police noticed the bloodstained grapestalk! Packer claimed that Stride was wearing a flower like a geranium, red and white. Unfortunately, the police say she wore a red rose!

The police must have interviewed the sisters, but I can find no official trace of their account, which is why I have asked twice if anyone has any other information about them. Le Grand's criminal record makes him a dubious witness, and as Packer's story changed several times, and almost everything he did is linked to LeGrand, one must have reservations about their evidence. The doctors, of course, gave evidence that Stride had not eaten grapes.

I cannot disprove Packer's account, but I have very grave reservations about it!

[Wickerman]

The unconfirmed story of the bloodstained grapestalk suggests that Stride had grapes in her hands when she was killed. It seems very relevant to me.

Apparently, it didn't.
The whole idea was rejected by the authorities, as with most modern theorists.

[Wickerman]

Hi Doctored Whatsit!

A bloodstained grapestalk is interesting. The idea that the grapestalk was bloodstained seemed to have passed me by.

Is there any newspaper or other sources for this though?

The next evidence gleaned by the detectives was that of a Mrs. Rosenfield and her sister, Miss Eva Harstein, both residing at 14 Berner street. Mrs. Rosenfield deposes that early on Sunday morning she passed the spot on which the body had lain, and observed on the ground close by a grape stalk stained with blood. Miss Eva Harstein gave corroborative evidence as to the finding of the grape stalk close to where the body lay. She also stated that, after the removal of the body of the murdered woman she saw a few small petals of a white natural flower lying quite close to the spot where the body had rested.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

[Wickerman]

...I cannot disprove Packer's account, but I have very grave reservations about it!

PC Smith's sighting 'proves' Packer's story about the man who was with Stride, at the same time, same place, also carrying a package.

[Doctored Whatsit]

PC Smith's sighting 'proves' Packer's story about the man who was with Stride, at the same time, same place, also carrying a package.

Hi Jon, I think "proves" is a bit of an exaggeration. Although I accept your previous suggestion that Packer might well have put grapes in a newspaper, Smith's statement that the man carried a newspaper parcel about 18 inches long and 6 - 8 inches in width seems to indicate a rectangular item wrapped up, and not a much smaller item, rounded, and open at the top, as would probably have been the case with grapes which were being eaten. Packer said the man had a "soft felt hat, a kind of Yankee hat" whereas Smith said the man wore a " hard felt deerstalker".

I accept, as I always have, the possibility that there is some truth in Packer's story, but there are very strong reasons for my reservations, and on balance, I am very doubtful as to its accuracy.

Packer's first claim was that he saw no one just before he closed up, secondly, he saw the couple 12 - 12. 30 am, then thirdly, he altered this to 11 - 11. 30 pm. In view of Wm Marshall's statement that he was at the door 11 - 11. 30 pm and it didn't rain then, and his man had nothing in his hands, I assume you wish to consider Packer's second account, with the time of 12 - 12. 30 am as the more likely of the three, to line up with PC Smith timing. Smith said it rained very little after 11 o'clock, which allows some light drizzle after 12 perhaps, to back up Packer's statement about the couple standing around in the rain, although I believe that Stride's clothing was said to be dry, except for the mud.

We are wading through a lot of evidence, much of which is simply contradictory, and we have to reject some of it as unlikely or a mistake! We will all be likely to potentially reject different parts of the various accounts.

[mpriestnall]

Hi, the problem is that Packer's alleged sale of grapes, and all other mention of grapes and stalks seems to be linked in some way to Le Grand, and he seems to have been the person providing the newspapers with their stories. He was hired by the Telegraph and the Evening News. It is claimed that the sisters Harstein and Rosenfeld saw a blood stained grapestalk in the passageway entry to Dutfield's Yard, and also some white flower petals. Somehow none of the police noticed the bloodstained grapestalk! Packer claimed that Stride was wearing a flower like a geranium, red and white. Unfortunately, the police say she wore a red rose!

The police must have interviewed the sisters, but I can find no official trace of their account, which is why I have asked twice if anyone has any other information about them. Le Grand's criminal record makes him a dubious witness, and as Packer's story changed several times, and almost everything he did is linked to LeGrand, one must have reservations about their evidence. The doctors, of course, gave evidence that Stride had not eaten grapes.

I cannot disprove Packer's account, but I have very grave reservations about it!

Hi Doctored Whatsit,

Thanks for that!

Though PC Lamb didn't mention the grapestalk, working from memory only here, wasn't he reported as seeing grapes in Stride's hand?
If so, as a police officer, his assertion should carry some weight?

I'll look up this point later when I get time.

[mpriestnall]

The next evidence gleaned by the detectives was that of a Mrs. Rosenfield and her sister, Miss Eva Harstein, both residing at 14 Berner street. Mrs. Rosenfield deposes that early on Sunday morning she passed the spot on which the body had lain, and observed on the ground close by a grape stalk stained with blood. Miss Eva Harstein gave corroborative evidence as to the finding of the grape stalk close to where the body lay. She also stated that, after the removal of the body of the murdered woman she saw a few small petals of a white natural flower lying quite close to the spot where the body had rested.
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881004.html

Hi Wicks!

I appreciate that reference. Cheers!