Packer Again

[DJA]

William Marshall - Jack the Ripper Wiki

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mike, bare in mind we have no formal statement from Packer to police. I see you have not included his statement to the press, as published by the London Evening News, for one example.

Alterations were made to Sgt. White's report, by whom we have no idea, but they appear to be wrong.

The memo signed by A.C.B. appears to be just hi-lites, it is not a formal statement, and Carmichael-Bruce is not the person to conduct an interview, so his notes are only just that - personal notes.

Packer does say he shut up shop after the pubs close, on a Saturday night they closed at midnight.
So, anything recorded that suggests he shut up shop about 11:30 is simply wrong.

As we know Stride was at the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00 am, so the police would have known Stride was not buying grapes from Packer at that time, which leaves approx. 11:45 as the alternate time.

Although the only complete account we have is from the press, aside from a few dramatic embellishments, it reads as the most accurate version of Packer's story.




Quote from the London Evening News, 4 Oct. 1888.

THE MURDERER AT THE WINDOW.

"Some time between half past eleven and twelve a man and woman came up Berner street from the direction of Ellen street, and stopped outside my window looking at the fruit. The man was about thirty to thirty five years of age, medium height, and with rather a dark complexion. He wore a black coat and a black, soft felt hat. He looked to me like a clerk or something of that sort. I am certain he wasn't what I should call a working man or anything like us folks that live around here."

WHAT THE WOMAN WAS LIKE.

"Did you notice the woman so that you would know her again?"

"Yes. I saw that she was dressed in dark clothes, looked a middle aged woman, and carried a white flower in her hand. I saw that as plain as anything could be, and I am sure I should know the woman again. I was taken today to the see the dead body of a woman lying in Golden land mortuary, but I can swear that wasn't the woman that stood at my shop window on Saturday night."

THE SOUND OF THE ASSASSIN'S VOICE.

"Well, they hadn't stood there more than a minute when the man stepped a bit forward, and said, 'I say, old man, how do you sell your grapes.'"

"I answered, 'Sixpence a pound the black 'uns, sir, and fourpence a pound the white 'uns.'" Then he turned to the woman and said, 'Which will you have, my dear, black or white? You shall have whichever you like best.'"

"The woman said, 'Oh, then I'll have the black 'uns, 'cos they look the nicest.'"

"'Give us half a pound of the black ones, then,' said the man. I put the grapes in a paper bag and handed them to him."

"Did you observe anything peculiar about his voice or manner, as he spoke to you?"

"He spoke like an educated man, but he had a loud, sharp sort of voice, and a quick commanding way with him."

"But did he speak like an Englishman or more in this style?" I asked, imitating as well as I could the Yankee twang.

"Yes, now you mention it, there was a sound of that sort about it," was the instantaneous reply.

THE MURDERER LAYING HIS PLANS.

"And what became of them after that?"

"First of all, they stood near the gateway leading into the club for a minute or two, and then they crossed the road and stood right opposite."

"For how long?"

"More than half an hour, I should say; so long that I said to my missus, 'Why, them people must be a couple o' fools to stand out there in the rain eating grapes they bought here, when they might just as well have had shelter! In fact, sir, me and my missus left 'em standing there when we went to bed."

"And what time was that?"

"I couldn't say exactly, but it must have been past midnight a little bit, for the public houses was shut up."

"And that was positively the last you saw of them?"

"Yes. Standing opposite the yard where the murdered woman was found."

Thanks for that Wick.

So Packer is saying here that the woman that the man bought grapes for wasn’t Stride?

I’m not as totally convinced that Packer was lying, as many are, but I certainly have serious concerns that he might have been and probably the main one is White’s claim that Packer had said that he’d seen no one when first interviewed but Packer said that he’d hadn’t been interviewed by the police. What is your take on that Wick?

[GBinOz]

I don't think Packer can entirely be dismissed. To me is is a sort of character who is prone to exaggeration. We all know people like this. I don't need to give examples. There are a couple in my own family. Also he may add some things he has heard mentioned by somebody else. But I think what he has to say has the ring of truth about it.

There may be a simple explanation to why he says he wasn't interviewed to by Sgt White when White says he was and Packer stated he didn't see or hear anything.

Imagine the scene in the morning. The area around the yard would have been extremely busy. Onlookers, club members, residents, on the street talking (remember no tv or radio) if you want to know what's going on then go outside speak and mingle. Add to this scene police officers talking with the public, asking questions, chatting. Along come sgt White. speaks to Packer and the occupants of number 44 Berner Street.

Now remember it isnt White just turning up and being the only person in the street its very very busy. Asked about whether Packer sees anything and of course he says no, didn't hear anything didn't see anything. Why? because he didnt. He hasn't really put two and two together. There is a time being spoken of in the street by the people there talking to each other and that time is 1.00am when Diemschutz come home with his cart.

The couple buying the grapes did so some time before, maybe 30-45 minutes before. Packer hasnt really thought about it. Nobody has mentioned a couple up to this point in time. All we have at this point in time is a single woman murdered and found in the yard. I dont even suppose Sgt White at this moment in time knows anything about couples being relevant (not sure if I am right there but when do we first hear of any couples milling around). In fact I think most people if they thought of JTR is a murderer stalking and murdering unaccompanied women. In other words in peoples eyes couples are irrelevant maybe. They would be considered witnesses not JTR with his girlfriend/victim for the night. The couples only appear after the investigation has gathered pace some hours and days later.

So later when questioned everybody starts to think (as does Packer) and the relevance of the couple Packer sold grapes to becomes apparent. People begin to think well maybe the victim is with the murderer and the enquiry progresses. From then on Packer talks of what he knows about the couple he sold grapes to and what they did. So both Packers statements can be true. He didn't see or hear anything related to the murder but he did see some things earlier which may or may not be relevant.

NW

Excellent post NW.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a small observation but I think we can say with some certainty that it is highly likely that there would be grape stalks in and around Dutfields yard if anybody bothered to look. Packer sold grapes. As far as I am aware there were no dustbins (trash cans) in the street. Grapes were purchased. People discard the stalks, they get on peoples shoes, horses hooves. I would find it more unlikely that there were no grapes stalks in and around Packers window at least. In conclusion. It means nothing if a grape stalk was found in Dutfields yard. I think if any grapes were purchased half a mile away well it might mean something. If you see what I mean

NW

Good point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't think Packer can entirely be dismissed. To me is is a sort of character who is prone to exaggeration. We all know people like this. I don't need to give examples. There are a couple in my own family. Also he may add some things he has heard mentioned by somebody else. But I think what he has to say has the ring of truth about it.

There may be a simple explanation to why he says he wasn't interviewed to by Sgt White when White says he was and Packer stated he didn't see or hear anything.

Imagine the scene in the morning. The area around the yard would have been extremely busy. Onlookers, club members, residents, on the street talking (remember no tv or radio) if you want to know what's going on then go outside speak and mingle. Add to this scene police officers talking with the public, asking questions, chatting. Along come sgt White. speaks to Packer and the occupants of number 44 Berner Street.

Now remember it isnt White just turning up and being the only person in the street its very very busy. Asked about whether Packer sees anything and of course he says no, didn't hear anything didn't see anything. Why? because he didnt. He hasn't really put two and two together. There is a time being spoken of in the street by the people there talking to each other and that time is 1.00am when Diemschutz come home with his cart.

The couple buying the grapes did so some time before, maybe 30-45 minutes before. Packer hasnt really thought about it. Nobody has mentioned a couple up to this point in time. All we have at this point in time is a single woman murdered and found in the yard. I dont even suppose Sgt White at this moment in time knows anything about couples being relevant (not sure if I am right there but when do we first hear of any couples milling around). In fact I think most people if they thought of JTR is a murderer stalking and murdering unaccompanied women. In other words in peoples eyes couples are irrelevant maybe. They would be considered witnesses not JTR with his girlfriend/victim for the night. The couples only appear after the investigation has gathered pace some hours and days later.

So later when questioned everybody starts to think (as does Packer) and the relevance of the couple Packer sold grapes to becomes apparent. People begin to think well maybe the victim is with the murderer and the enquiry progresses. From then on Packer talks of what he knows about the couple he sold grapes to and what they did. So both Packers statements can be true. He didn't see or hear anything related to the murder but he did see some things earlier which may or may not be relevant.

NW

Another good one NW. The only point against your suggestion is that White specifically said that he’d visited Packer at number 44. But…if he had ‘interviewed’ him in the street as he and the other occupants stood around trying to find information/gossip he’d certainly have noted his address. So when he wrote up his notes he might have thought that it looked more official to say that he’d interviewed him at the house. To be honest it makes more sense that Packer just lying about no one interviewing him when they had.