Did Jack Solicit the Unfortunate?

[mklhawley]

Greetings all,

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

Now, as far as you know, I’m not a serial killer, but if I was in 1888, the only way I’d be caught (assuming no one watched me in the act) would be an eyewitness account of me, as the last punter, walking the unfortunate. Knowing this, why allow someone the opportunity to see me with her? The assumption has always been that JTR was a punter who first solicited the unfortunate, then followed her to a secluded location, and finally mutilated her. What if JTR did not solicit anyone, meaning he staked out an unfortunate until she struck a deal with a punter, then he merely followed the two to a secured location. Once the punter was finished, he left, and she being all on her own, he struck.

This would explain why eyewitness testimonies vary, since the accounts are describing the last punter and not JTR.

Also, this would explain the double event. Once surprised, he left, quickly connected with an unfortunate walking with a punter. After he finished, he did his business and left.

Assuming one killer (Hi Lynn).

Sincerely,
Mike

[Barnaby]

A problem with this scenario is that there was no evidence of the victims having had recent sexual activity.

[Abby Normal]

Greetings all,

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

Now, as far as you know, I’m not a serial killer, but if I was in 1888, the only way I’d be caught (assuming no one watched me in the act) would be an eyewitness account of me, as the last punter, walking the unfortunate. Knowing this, why allow someone the opportunity to see me with her? The assumption has always been that JTR was a punter who first solicited the unfortunate, then followed her to a secluded location, and finally mutilated her. What if JTR did not solicit anyone, meaning he staked out an unfortunate until she struck a deal with a punter, then he merely followed the two to a secured location. Once the punter was finished, he left, and she being all on her own, he struck.

This would explain why eyewitness testimonies vary, since the accounts are describing the last punter and not JTR.

Also, this would explain the double event. Once surprised, he left, quickly connected with an unfortunate walking with a punter. After he finished, he did his business and left.

Assuming one killer (Hi Lynn).

Sincerely,
Mike

hi Mike
its an interesting idea and certainly possible, although if youthink it through Im not sure how viable it is.
firstly, I think people are pretty aware when they are being followed, especially when they are doing something illegal.
secondly, I think that your scenario would give the victim more time to be suspicious of him and be able to fight back or scream out, if he suddenly appeared out of the darkness in a secluded area. basically there would be more time for the victim to be scared.

and considering the actual time frames involved from when the witnesses saw the victim and when they were found dead, I don't think your scenario is very feasible.

engaging with the prostitute first , gaining her trust,and letting her guide you to the secluded area under the pretext for sex, seems to me the least way to get caught. you could get to the point when you were actually already in physical contact with the victim before you struck and before the victim knew she was In trouble, therefor giving her less time to scream or fight back before you rendered her unconscious or dead.

As long as you made sure you weren't seen by someone you knew in the few minutes it would take to engage the victim and walk with them, I think its virtually impossible for a stranger witness to be the cause of your being caught, with just a description.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mike

I don't actually have any final thoughts on the matter, but it is an aspect of the case that puzzles me somewhat.

It's an interesting question - for example, I think a reasonable case can be made that Stride was waiting for someone.

[Abby Normal]

A problem with this scenario is that there was no evidence of the victims having had recent sexual activity.

and well of course this too.

[mklhawley]

A problem with this scenario is that there was no evidence of the victims having had recent sexual activity.

Hi all,

Excellent points, but I'll push it just for discussion sake. Am I correct that the only way they answered this was through a visual inspection? If these unfortunates were on the streets might they not have performed sex earlier? Why would this not have been discovered?

Mike

[mklhawley]

hi Mike
its an interesting idea and certainly possible, although if youthink it through Im not sure how viable it is.
firstly, I think people are pretty aware when they are being followed, especially when they are doing something illegal.
secondly, I think that your scenario would give the victim more time to be suspicious of him and be able to fight back or scream out, if he suddenly appeared out of the darkness in a secluded area. basically there would be more time for the victim to be scared.

and considering the actual time frames involved from when the witnesses saw the victim and when they were found dead, I don't think your scenario is very feasible.

engaging with the prostitute first , gaining her trust,and letting her guide you to the secluded area under the pretext for sex, seems to me the least way to get caught. you could get to the point when you were actually already in physical contact with the victim before you struck and before the victim knew she was In trouble, therefor giving her less time to scream or fight back before you rendered her unconscious or dead.

As long as you made sure you weren't seen by someone you knew in the few minutes it would take to engage the victim and walk with them, I think its virtually impossible for a stranger witness to be the cause of your being caught, with just a description.

Very true. My thoughts are that the area was very dark, so not being seen would have been quite easy. Fitting the timeline for this is a different story.

Mike

[lynn cates]

Hanbury

Hello Mike. Good question.

I wonder if this scenario can be made to dovetail with the Hanbury event?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

seemin'

Hello Barnaby. What if it were . . . invisible semen?

(After all, this would match up with the invisible bruising on Liz and Kate.)

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Hi all,

Excellent points, but I'll push it just for discussion sake. Am I correct that the only way they answered this was through a visual inspection? If these unfortunates were on the streets might they not have performed sex earlier? Why would this not have been discovered?

Mike

Because the vagina and labia are remarkably forgiving organs. Both return to their original state within half an hour of sex. Had someone had sex with these women shortly before they died, it would have been visually apparent, even without the presence of semen.

[The Good Michael]

Because the vagina and labia are remarkably forgiving organs. Both return to their original state within half an hour of sex. Had someone had sex with these women shortly before they died, it would have been visually apparent, even without the presence of semen.

No vagina was examined even within an hour of any of the murders that I know of. The only thing they would have been looking for was semen.

Mike

[Lechmere]

I presume that swabs would have been taken as a matter of course.

This scenario presumes that the victim stayed in her secluded location, for at least a short while, on her own, after her punter left. Does this sound likely? It doesn't to me.

I would guess that the culprit will have approached quite a few women and not gone through with his intention, for a variety of reasons. For example, he will have been spotted too clearly by a passer by or he will not have felt comfortable at the secluded location. In such circumstances I would expect that he made his excuses and left. I would be certain that this happened quite often with prostitutes anyway, for non murderous reasons.

Incidentally those with a hang up about Stride being a Ripper victim fail to take account of the likelihood that when committing half a dozen or so murders, things will not always go to plan.

[mklhawley]

I presume that swabs would have been taken as a matter of course.

This scenario presumes that the victim stayed in her secluded location, for at least a short while, on her own, after her punter left. Does this sound likely? It doesn't to me.

I would guess that the culprit will have approached quite a few women and not gone through with his intention, for a variety of reasons. For example, he will have been spotted too clearly by a passer by or he will not have felt comfortable at the secluded location. In such circumstances I would expect that he made his excuses and left. I would be certain that this happened quite often with prostitutes anyway, for non murderous reasons.

Incidentally those with a hang up about Stride being a Ripper victim fail to take account of the likelihood that when committing half a dozen or so murders, things will not always go to plan.

So, let's take Lechmere as an example. If he was the killer, don't the locations better support him following an unfortunate as opposed to soliciting one?

[Fisherman]

So, let's take Lechmere as an example. If he was the killer, don't the locations better support him following an unfortunate as opposed to soliciting one?

Why would that be?

If we look at Eddowes, then she would have been seen with an innocent punter at 1.35, by Lawende et al.
Then she would have entered the square together with that punter, and served him.
The punter would then have buttoned up and left, and Eddowes would have lingered in Mitre Square.
After that, the Ripper would emerge from his hiding place (wherever that was), approach Eddowes and overpower her, kill her and disembowel her, all this in total silence.
And then he would leave the square before Watkins entered it and found Eddowes at 1.45.
I find this scenario compresses an already very tight schedule further.

Was there time for all this?

All the best,
Fisherman

[mklhawley]

Why would that be?

If we look at Eddowes, then she would have been seen with an innocent punter at 1.35, by Lawende et al.
Then she would have entered the square together with that punter, and served him.
The punter would then have buttoned up and left, and Eddowes would have lingered in Mitre Square.
After that, the Ripper would emerge from his hiding place (wherever that was), approach Eddowes and overpower her, kill her and disembowel her, all this in total silence.
And then he would leave the square before Watkins entered it and found Eddowes at 1.45.
I find this scenario compresses an already very tight schedule further.

Was there time for all this?

All the best,
Fisherman

Excellent point, Fisherman. That's not much time even for this sailor-looking man. So, in this scenario, this punter was the killer, but we don't really know if Eddowes completed the transaction with this particular man.

It's difficult for me to see anyone (with possible blood stains) just coming from a kill to make an unfortunate so comfortable that she warmly places her hand on his chest. I can definitely see the killer rushing away from the first murder, spotting her.

Thanks,
Mike