Did Jack Solicit the Unfortunate?

[Errata]

No vagina was examined even within an hour of any of the murders that I know of. The only thing they would have been looking for was semen.

Mike

But tissues don't recover after blood flow stops and muscles stop receiving input. So there would be very little change after death. So if a woman has sex within half an hour of death, her vagina would have been stretched but would not have been able to recover. And any blood engorging the labia would simply stay where it was.

[lynn cates]

theories

Hello Barnaby. Thanks.

I was trying to illustrate the absurd lengths to which some "theorists" will go to save their cornball theories.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

interfemoral

Hello Damaso.

"You're assuming the intercourse would have been vaginal, which I understand is not the case."

Indeed. The preferred form was "interfemoral." That is why Polly's thighs were checked for secretions.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Damaso Marte

You're assuming the intercourse would have been vaginal, which I understand is not the case.

My personal argument against an ambush killer would be the complete silence that accompanied most of the killings. To me, that suggests a killer that first made his victims comfortable, such as by making it seem that it was just business as usual.

Not if it were a real blitz attack, people kill silently regularly.

[Barnaby]

Hello Barnaby. What if it were . . . invisible semen?

(After all, this would match up with the invisible bruising on Liz and Kate.)

Cheers.
LC

I chuckled at this until the thought of running a black light on my hotel comforter popped into my head and then I got creeped out.

[Damaso Marte]

Because the vagina and labia are remarkably forgiving organs. Both return to their original state within half an hour of sex. Had someone had sex with these women shortly before they died, it would have been visually apparent, even without the presence of semen.

You're assuming the intercourse would have been vaginal, which I understand is not the case.

My personal argument against an ambush killer would be the complete silence that accompanied most of the killings. To me, that suggests a killer that first made his victims comfortable, such as by making it seem that it was just business as usual.

[GUT]

G'day Lechmere

However some think that the Ripper went out deliberately to kill two that night. The possibility of being bloodied after the first strike and approaching and winning he confidence of a second victim - up close and personal - makes that seem unlikely to me.

Maybe that was part of the thrill, the challenge of getting away with it.

Of course if he did set out to do a double he may not have been disturbed with Liz.

[Lechmere]

Whoever did the crimes, I presume that they met the victims on one of the main drags - Whitechapel Road, Whitechapel High Street, Aldgate High Street, Commercial Street - and the victim then took the culprit to the eventual crime scene.
This is the most obvious explanation.
It is how I would presume Charles Lechmere would have operated. I certainly have never thought if him in terms of being a lurker.

I am doubtful that any of the people supposedly sighted with the victims before any of the murders were the culprit. Not because Chares Lechmere couldn't have been any of them - he could conceivably have been all or none of them as the descriptions were so vague.

As for the killer approaching Eddowes if bloody from Stride, I rather doubt he was bloody, certainly not so bloody as would show up in the ill-lit night time streets.
However some think that the Ripper went out deliberately to kill two that night. The possibility of being bloodied after the first strike and approaching and winning he confidence of a second victim - up close and personal - makes that seem unlikely to me.

[GUT]

Personally I have always seen him as not being the man described by any witness, but more a blitz killer.

As for the woman staying behind for a short while after the last client leaves, I see this as a likely scenario, she probably wanted to clean up before looking for the next, which also explains to a degree the lack of any signs of congress when the body was examined.

Jack may have been a voyeur, getting his jollies watching, then after client leaves ... strike!

[Abby Normal]

I presume that swabs would have been taken as a matter of course.

This scenario presumes that the victim stayed in her secluded location, for at least a short while, on her own, after her punter left. Does this sound likely? It doesn't to me.

I would guess that the culprit will have approached quite a few women and not gone through with his intention, for a variety of reasons. For example, he will have been spotted too clearly by a passer by or he will not have felt comfortable at the secluded location. In such circumstances I would expect that he made his excuses and left. I would be certain that this happened quite often with prostitutes anyway, for non murderous reasons.

Incidentally those with a hang up about Stride being a Ripper victim fail to take account of the likelihood that when committing half a dozen or so murders, things will not always go to plan.

Bingo

[Fisherman]

Excellent point, Fisherman. That's not much time even for this sailor-looking man. So, in this scenario, this punter was the killer, but we don't really know if Eddowes completed the transaction with this particular man.

It's difficult for me to see anyone (with possible blood stains) just coming from a kill to make an unfortunate so comfortable that she warmly places her hand on his chest. I can definitely see the killer rushing away from the first murder, spotting her.

Thanks,
Mike

Okay, so letīs assume that Sailor man was not her killer. Then we would still have to find time for another man arriving and picking Eddowes up, after she had taken her hand off Sailor manīs chest and wawed her farewells to him.

It would still mean an addition of time to that crammed scenario, but not to as large an extent as previously. A minute or so would suffice, but "free" minutes are hard to come by.

Otherwise, of course it could have happened the way you say, but I would like to add a point. If, as you suggest, the killer arrived as Kate was parting with Sailor man, and if he had blood on him, would not Kate:
A/ Sense danger and start yelling, and
B/ Be reluctant to accompany him down Church Passage

If Sailor man was somebody with whom Kate did not do the business, I think we must predispose that they parted up at Duke Street.

Thoughts?

The best,
Fisherman

[mklhawley]

Why would that be?

If we look at Eddowes, then she would have been seen with an innocent punter at 1.35, by Lawende et al.
Then she would have entered the square together with that punter, and served him.
The punter would then have buttoned up and left, and Eddowes would have lingered in Mitre Square.
After that, the Ripper would emerge from his hiding place (wherever that was), approach Eddowes and overpower her, kill her and disembowel her, all this in total silence.
And then he would leave the square before Watkins entered it and found Eddowes at 1.45.
I find this scenario compresses an already very tight schedule further.

Was there time for all this?

All the best,
Fisherman

Excellent point, Fisherman. That's not much time even for this sailor-looking man. So, in this scenario, this punter was the killer, but we don't really know if Eddowes completed the transaction with this particular man.

It's difficult for me to see anyone (with possible blood stains) just coming from a kill to make an unfortunate so comfortable that she warmly places her hand on his chest. I can definitely see the killer rushing away from the first murder, spotting her.

Thanks,
Mike

[Fisherman]

So, let's take Lechmere as an example. If he was the killer, don't the locations better support him following an unfortunate as opposed to soliciting one?

Why would that be?

If we look at Eddowes, then she would have been seen with an innocent punter at 1.35, by Lawende et al.
Then she would have entered the square together with that punter, and served him.
The punter would then have buttoned up and left, and Eddowes would have lingered in Mitre Square.
After that, the Ripper would emerge from his hiding place (wherever that was), approach Eddowes and overpower her, kill her and disembowel her, all this in total silence.
And then he would leave the square before Watkins entered it and found Eddowes at 1.45.
I find this scenario compresses an already very tight schedule further.

Was there time for all this?

All the best,
Fisherman

[mklhawley]

I presume that swabs would have been taken as a matter of course.

This scenario presumes that the victim stayed in her secluded location, for at least a short while, on her own, after her punter left. Does this sound likely? It doesn't to me.

I would guess that the culprit will have approached quite a few women and not gone through with his intention, for a variety of reasons. For example, he will have been spotted too clearly by a passer by or he will not have felt comfortable at the secluded location. In such circumstances I would expect that he made his excuses and left. I would be certain that this happened quite often with prostitutes anyway, for non murderous reasons.

Incidentally those with a hang up about Stride being a Ripper victim fail to take account of the likelihood that when committing half a dozen or so murders, things will not always go to plan.

So, let's take Lechmere as an example. If he was the killer, don't the locations better support him following an unfortunate as opposed to soliciting one?

[Lechmere]

I presume that swabs would have been taken as a matter of course.

This scenario presumes that the victim stayed in her secluded location, for at least a short while, on her own, after her punter left. Does this sound likely? It doesn't to me.

I would guess that the culprit will have approached quite a few women and not gone through with his intention, for a variety of reasons. For example, he will have been spotted too clearly by a passer by or he will not have felt comfortable at the secluded location. In such circumstances I would expect that he made his excuses and left. I would be certain that this happened quite often with prostitutes anyway, for non murderous reasons.

Incidentally those with a hang up about Stride being a Ripper victim fail to take account of the likelihood that when committing half a dozen or so murders, things will not always go to plan.