Witness Testimony: Albert Cadosche

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

My apologies for such a slow response.

In regard to the emboldened part of your post I wonder if you’d seen this when I last posted it. It was found by Debra Arif and is an example of the insult ‘Lipski’ being directed by a Jewish person to another Jewish person.



Sorry it’s so small Jeff, I haven’t a clue how to make it bigger and clearer.

Hi Herlock,

Fair point. Like many of the bits of information we have, these sorts of things never have only one possibility associated with them. I would think the odds would suggest if B.S. was shouting the "Lipski" insult at Schwartz, then B.S. is more likely to be a gentile. Moreover, given that removes the connection between B.S. and Pipeman, it would mean Pipeman could be anything.

But yes, given that Lipski wasn't only used by Gentiles towards Jews, but also between Jews (and probably between Gentiles at times as well), there remains reasonable grounds to not draw that conclusion too strongly. In fact, if my presumption that it was more common as a Gentile to Jewish insult is incorrect, and it was more common as a Jewish to Jewish insult, then the exact opposite argument can be made.

- Jeff

[rjpalmer]

Sorry it’s so small Jeff, I haven’t a clue how to make it bigger and clearer.

I accept cash, PayPal, credit cards, and most brands of stout, porter, and IPA.


(I should note that this is from 29 January 1888)

[rjpalmer]

In fact, if my presumption that it was more common as a Gentile to Jewish insult is incorrect, and it was more common as a Jewish to Jewish insult, then the exact opposite argument can be made.

I don't think this proves anything, but taking a quick look in the census, Myers Jacoby, the one using the slur, was born in Bavaria/Cologne and his wife was born in Cornwall, whereas (provided I have found the correct man, and I think I have) Philip Solomons, tailor (he's in Goulston Street, Whitechapel in 1891) and his wife were born in Poland.

I'm just making an educated guess, but it could be a case that Jews who felt they were more 'assimilated' might be more inclined to use a slur against a Polish Jew. Friedland, in The Trials of Israel Lipski, did discuss tensions between the 'British' Jews and the 'Foreign' Jews. Jacoby wouldn't have fallen in the former class, though he might have felt like he was deserving of it.

I suppose I'm straying off-topic.

[JeffHamm]

I don't think this proves anything, but taking a quick look in the census, Myers Jacoby, the one using the slur, was born in Bavaria/Cologne and his wife was born in Cornwall, whereas (provided I have found the correct man, and I think I have) Philip Solomons, tailor (he's in Goulston Street, Whitechapel in 1891) and his wife were born in Poland.

I'm just making an educated guess, but it could be a case that Jews who felt they were more 'assimilated' might be more inclined to use a slur against a Polish Jew. Friedland, in The Trials of Israel Lipski, did discuss tensions between the 'British' Jews and the 'Foreign' Jews. Jacoby wouldn't have fallen in the former class, though he might have felt like he was deserving of it.

I suppose I'm straying off-topic.

That's a possibility, particularly if Jacoby moved to the UK when very young.

But yes, I suppose we are drifting off-topic now.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I accept cash, PayPal, credit cards, and most brands of stout, porter, and IPA.


(I should note that this is from 29 January 1888)

Thanks Mr. P.

Good taste in beer by the way. I had a few cracking stouts on the Bermondsey Beer mile recently.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Fair point. Like many of the bits of information we have, these sorts of things never have only one possibility associated with them. I would think the odds would suggest if B.S. was shouting the "Lipski" insult at Schwartz, then B.S. is more likely to be a gentile. Moreover, given that removes the connection between B.S. and Pipeman, it would mean Pipeman could be anything.

But yes, given that Lipski wasn't only used by Gentiles towards Jews, but also between Jews (and probably between Gentiles at times as well), there remains reasonable grounds to not draw that conclusion too strongly. In fact, if my presumption that it was more common as a Gentile to Jewish insult is incorrect, and it was more common as a Jewish to Jewish insult, then the exact opposite argument can be made.

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I certainly wouldn’t argue that BS man was more likely to have been a gentile. I’d just sum it up by adding that I wouldn’t entirely dismiss the possibility that BS man might have been Jewish. And I certainly would dismiss a suspect on the grounds of his being Jewish.

Perhaps I can be accused of being over-cautious but I’m also slightly wary of the description ‘Broad shouldered’ man too. He might well have been Broad shouldered and of stocky build but I don’t think that it’s impossible that clothing might have accounted for this; or exaggerated it. Just a possibility worth considering imo.

[Elamarna]

I accept cash, PayPal, credit cards, and most brands of stout, porter, and IPA.


(I should note that this is from 29 January 1888)

That it predates the events in Berner Street is of interest to me.

Steve

[Elamarna]

I don't think this proves anything, but taking a quick look in the census, Myers Jacoby, the one using the slur, was born in Bavaria/Cologne and his wife was born in Cornwall, whereas (provided I have found the correct man, and I think I have) Philip Solomons, tailor (he's in Goulston Street, Whitechapel in 1891) and his wife were born in Poland.

I'm just making an educated guess, but it could be a case that Jews who felt they were more 'assimilated' might be more inclined to use a slur against a Polish Jew. Friedland, in The Trials of Israel Lipski, did discuss tensions between the 'British' Jews and the 'Foreign' Jews. Jacoby wouldn't have fallen in the former class, though he might have felt like he was deserving of it.

I suppose I'm straying off-topic.

A suggestion that requires consideration, particular with regards to the origin of BS man.

Steve

[Fiver]

In real life, the police asked Lawende, who had seen a fair man aged about about 30 and with the appearance of a sailor, to try and identify, in turn, two men who were themselves sailors.

They did not ask Long to try to identify a dark man in his 40s.

Long did not see the suspect's face, so there's no way she could have identified anyone's face.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Long did not see the suspect's face, so there's no way she could have identified anyone's face.

A great suspect.

Long did not see his face, Cadoche did not see him at all, and the police never found a suspect fitting his description.

[Fiver]

And another problem is that it is obvious that both Schwartz and Lawende described Gentile suspects.

That is incorrect. Shouting Lipski makes it more likely that Broad-shouldered Man was a Gentile, but evidence has been provided that "British" Jews sometimes used the slur against "foreign" Jews.

Nothing in the descriptions of Broad-shouldered Man, Pipe Man, or Church Passage Man eliminates the possibility of them being Jews. There were Jews that got drunk, even on Shabbat. There were tall Jews. There were fair-skinned Jews. There were fair-haired Jews. There were Jewish sailors.

Though I doubt Church Passage Man was a sailor, since Lawende described him as fair complexioned, which is not the face of a man who has been to sea recently.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

That is incorrect. Shouting Lipski makes it more likely that Broad-shouldered Man was a Gentile, but evidence has been provided that "British" Jews sometimes used the slur against "foreign" Jews.

According to the newspaper report, the defendants were not British-born.

Nothing in the descriptions of Broad-shouldered Man, Pipe Man, or Church Passage Man eliminates the possibility of them being Jews.

The possibility is a remote one.

Their conduct and appearance strongly suggest the opposite.

There were Jews that got drunk, even on Shabbat. There were tall Jews. There were fair-skinned Jews. There were fair-haired Jews. There were Jewish sailors.

It was a rarity that a Jew was seen drunk in public.

It was unheard of for Jews to attack Gentile women in the street.

It was unheard of for Jews to shout antisemitic insults as people of Jewish appearance passed by in the street.

The chances of BS's having been Jewish are so remote as not to be worthy of consideration.

The chances of a fair sailor having been Jewish are similarly remote.

Though I doubt Church Passage Man was a sailor, since Lawende described him as fair complexioned, which is not the face of a man who has been to sea recently.

It seems plausible to me that a man with a fair moustache would have a fair complexion.

People knew how to recognise sailors.

If Lawende had not known how to do so, he would not have said that the man had the appearance of a sailor.

[Fleetwood Mac]

An interesting article here, complete with a raft of contemporary sources.

Policing the Ghetto: Jewish East London, 1880-1920 (openedition.org)

It includes:

It was the singularity of Jewish culture and customs that was most striking. The newcomers, though quarrelsome and noisy, were essentially private people not much given to brawling and boozing or the lower forms of street life. Their home-centredness found expression in the attention lavished upon children, in the rarity of wife-beating and in their generally orderly conduct. The ‘Jewish type’ of child, said Inspector Reid, was fairly dressed, clean, well-fed and booted. ‘Jews rarely get drunk’, said Inspector Barker, his colleague from the Bethnal green Division. ‘Jew women as a rule lead happier lives than Gentile women, more respected by the husband and more faithful’

Reading the article, you can understand why the GSG was some idiot with nothing better to do than scrawl racist nonsense on a wall, and nothing whatsoever to do with the murder.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As a general point, there’s no ‘group behaviour’ applicable here. Can any of us imagine a modern day police force looking into the attack and murder of an Irish woman in the street for example and concluding that they could dismiss someone because ‘a man of his religion/ethnicity would never behave in this way?’ Or can we imagine the police saying ‘we have no record of an 6’3” Italian Buddhist ever attacking an Irish Catholic woman in the streets before therefore it’s extremely unlikely that this man was guilty?’

Within any group there will be ‘bad eggs.’ Not just violent one’s or criminal one’s but those that just don’t conform. Surely we should be keeping an open mind on various witnesses or suspects because no matter how likely we feel our own interpretation to be there’s always a possibility that we could be wrong. I think that we should also acknowledge that if we propose caution on some witnesses or that other witnesses could have been mistaken then we should extend the same caution to all. Witnesses can quite easily report something honestly but mistake someone’s age or height or build or hair tone or clothing.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Can any of us imagine

We could imagine anything and everything, but that won't get us any farther than 'imagining'.

It seems that Jewish customs were not as in tune with 'boozing and brawling'.