The Stride Murder

[Fleetwood Mac]

Is Leon the parcelman? Did the parcel come out of the black bag?

I reckon that a lot of the time we get lost in the details of 'witnesses', in a Victorian era prone to sensationalism, some of them will have been in it for celebrity or to earn a few bob (desperate times necessitate desperate measures); and of course some of them will have been close to mark, but some of those will have given a fair description of that which they saw but it's not valuable (e.g. Elizabeth Long describing a couple when Annie was murdered long before that event). And then of course we have press repetition of second hand stories. It should be remembered that the press were businesses and the exact details didn't matter so much, it was a case of get a story out and sell newspapers. It doesn't hold the same value as the medical evidence, given their job was simply to record that which they observed.

As an example of sensationalism, when was the last time you walked down the street and thought: "he has strange eyes" or "he has a strange walk"? It's ridiculous, 'just doesn't happen, they were imagining some sort of strangeness in appearance because they didn't know what we know, which is that serial killers look just like the rest of us.

As a result, the really important information such as medical observation and record, and statements by police witnesses, the people paid to pay attention; are often lost in a deluge of information.

Strip away all of the flight of fancy and the rest of it and the result is that nobody saw a woman with a flower after PC Smith. That must count for something. I'd say Liz was in that yard with Parcel Man more or less as soon as PC Smith turned the corner.

It's probably worth remembering that the poor in East London were unlikely to buy newspapers unless having a regular wage. Many couldn't read, many had bigger things on their plate than the news, many will have spent any spare pennies on booze.

It follows again, it could well be an indication that Parcel Man wasn't your regular Whitechapel punter spending his spare money on booze.

During the Victorian era, coffee shops supplied 'free' newspapers as a way of attracting custom, and so Leon Goldstein, with his social activities; was able to acquire newspapers no problem and for no fee.

The problem is that PC Smith did not mention a bag, and so you'd have to say that the parcel didn't come out of a bag. Given PC Smith's measurements, was the parcel big enough to be a bag?

Looking forward to it.

Foreword by 'NotBlamedForNothing', page 1.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I

I've asked this question on previous threads but l ask it again, why do we place so much weight on Fanny Mortimer's version of events?

Outside of the medical evidence and PC Smith, Fanny is the best piece of information we have. Verified. Unlike Schwartz and associates running 'round. Nobody hears them; nobody sees them; nobody corroborates anything.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Annie Chapman was killed at around 5.30. The evidence for this is overwhelming. Why do we keep going there? There really should be no disagreement on this. It’s as close to an absolute fact as we can get. Three witnesses vs a doctors unreliable methodology. It’s no competition. Then again, it’s not for this thread. I just don’t u sets rand the resistance to the evidence though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Outside of the medical evidence and PC Smith, Fanny is the best piece of information we have. Verified. Unlike Schwartz and associates running 'round. Nobody hears them; nobody sees them; nobody corroborates anything.

Who corroborates Fanny?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Who corroborates Fanny?

Jack.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Three witnesses vs a doctors unreliable methodology.

Therein lies the flaw in your approach to the information, Herlock.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Therein lies the flaw in your approach to the information, Herlock.

By checking out what the experts in Forensic medicine say in standard textbooks and papers (without a single exception). By reading two books on the estimation of ToD? By not assuming that a Victorian doctor possessed knowledge 135 years ahead of his time? By doubting that a Victorian doctor could accurately estimate ToD in ways that doctors today can’t do?

Ok.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Jack.

And you question my methodology?

[Fleetwood Mac]

And you question my methodology?

I'll point out that Leon Goldstein came forward and verified Fanny being at the door.

[Fleetwood Mac]

By checking out what the experts in Forensic medicine say in standard textbooks and papers (without a single exception). By reading two books on the estimation of ToD? By not assuming that a Victorian doctor possessed knowledge 135 years ahead of his time? By doubting that a Victorian doctor could accurately estimate ToD in ways that doctors today can’t do?

Ok.

None of this is relevant.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll point out that Leon Goldstein came forward and verified Fanny being at the door.

Verified that Fanny had been at her door for the very few seconds that it took him to pass along Berner Street yes. But we can’t use her to dismiss Schwartz because we have no way of knowing the exact duration of her time on her doorstep and we have no way of knowing the exact time of the incident. For example, Fanny could have come onto her doorstep at 12.45 but Schwartz could have passed by and saw the incident a couple of minutes beforehand.

[Herlock Sholmes]

None of this is relevant.

What’s not relevant is making a statement that Chapman was killed earlier is if it’s a fact when it clearly isn’t. I don’t think that you support Cross or Gull as suspects so I don’t understand why you are so keen for an earlier ToD in the face of the evidence? I know why Cross or Gull supporters want an earlier ToD and why they ignore evidence but why anyone else should is a mystery.

[Wickerman]

So we are accepting a newspaper report as being a reliable source come on get real

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor.

Would you please take the time to refresh yourself about the case before making inaccurate claims.

Yes, Schwartz gave a statement to police at Leman-street police station.

Swanson tells us in his 19th Oct. report that Schwartz "stated", then provides the story he gave to police.
We've been talking about it all day yesterday.
No officer of Swanson's standing is going to include a newspaper account in his report to his superiors, he is referencing police statements on file with the department.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Verified that Fanny had been at her door for the very few seconds that it took him to pass along Berner Street yes.

Aye, Fanny gave her statement and part of that was verified independently. Much, much better than just about every other witness.

In the event part of her statement is verified, then she has something on the other witnesses which absolutely gives Fanny more credence.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I don't understand why you are so keen for an earlier ToD in the face of the evidence?

You said on this thread that you don't understand why some people cannot entertain that Jack killed Liz.

You're employing the same rigid approach but merely to a different aspect.

You keep appealing to this absolute: estimated TOD is useless. You're applying that across the board and that's it as far as you're concerned.

It depends. It depends on how long between TOD and estimation, due to biology.

Last time we had this conversation, you provided the OJ Simpson case. It turned out that the pathologists on that case clearly stated that they could not provide an accurate TOD range because they didn't have access to the body until 13 hours after the assumed TOD.

They clearly stated that had they had access to that body much earlier, then they would have been able to estimate the TOD with a degree of confidence, a range obviously.

In the event you can't remember, look it up. An article from the Los Angeles Times quoting the pathologists on the case.