The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Assuming all quotes are of Fanny.

I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Does she mean?...

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I would have seen him.

OR

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock that must have been the man I did see.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Jon,

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

How can the two boldened statements be reconciled as from the same woman? Also, one woman comments on the couple while the other adds no comment regarding a couple when asked if she saw them pass down the street.

I know that you don't agree, but I am still of the opinion that two women, Mortimer and Mrs Artisan, saw Goldstein in Berner St at different ties headed in opposite directions.

Cheers, George

I agree with Jon.

They can be reconciled because these are newspapers. They're not investigative organisations and their purpose is business. The exact details of that which was said was not important to them. They have the meat of their story, get it out for public consumption, don't worry so much about the exact details.

The other point to be mindful of, is that Fanny had no reason to take notice of everyone to the point that they all became part of her memory. She may well have seen other people in the street but simply did not remember. Neither you nor I remember everything we see in a period of time because quite simply there is no reason to take notice of it and store it for another day.

We pour over the statements 150 years later and rationalise them with time and from a distance, but witnesses had no reason whatsoever to take notice of what they were seeing, and it follows that many of these witness statements will be recollected in a manner which does not match what actually happened.

A witness who sees something suspicious is very different to a witness who has no reason to take notice of an event. Still, in both cases there is what is known as the 'misinformation effect'.

All in all, I would suggest that it is a mistake to accept witness statements and press reports as being accurate versions of events, much more so when the witness had no reason to take notice of what was going on around them.

[New Waterloo]

The reason i ask if we know what number Berner street Schwarz lived according to the press he was moving from is that it knocks the idea out of the window that he made a mistake with what street he was in!!

[Wickerman]

The reason i ask if we know what number Berner street Schwarz lived according to the press he was moving from is that it knocks the idea out of the window that he made a mistake with what street he was in!!

I understood where you were going, but there is no Berner St. address, only the Ellen St. one. And, we don't know if Ellen St. was his new address or his old one.
It is reasonable to suppose he would use Berner St. as his best route to get to 22 Ellen St., but as he couldn't read English anyway, and it being dark there is no certainty he knew he was in Berner St., he obviously thought he was, but that doesn't mean he really was.

[Wickerman]

I know that you don't agree, but I am still of the opinion that two women, Mortimer and Mrs Artisan, saw Goldstein in Berner St at different ties headed in opposite directions.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

I thought Mrs Artisan & Mrs Mortimer were the same woman, their stories being quite similar, but you're right Mrs Artisan does appear to describe a man with a black bag going in the opposite direction to what we believe Goldstein did.
So we must question if the two women are the same woman, and/or the two men with bags, are the same man, and/or is/are he/they walking in the same or opposite directions.
Then there are potential errors by the journalist or editor to consider.
Too many questions

[New Waterloo]

I have been looking at maps of Berner Street. Well as best I can. I didnt realize that Mathew Packer only lived one house down from the club. He and his wife were living at No 44 Berner Street. (correct me if I am wrong, I am sure you will). Well his house appears to have a back yard with direct access to Dutfields Yard!! There may be a wall or fence but is seems to be there.

Schwartz describes pipeman coming out of the pub. But Packers front door is very close to a door to the pub. At night stressed by what is going on is he sure that Pipeman emerges from the pub and not out of Packers front door. Is it Packer who comes out onto the street. in any case he was very close to the action.

Anyway regardless of theories I think it looks like a yard at the rear of his house with access to Dutfields yard. Any comments please.

I've probably got it all wrong

NW

[Wickerman]

Hi N.W.

I'm not sure what you think you have wrong.
The pic. below shows, in the bottom right corner, the club was No.40, the yard was beside it, then across the yard (southward) is No.42, Packer lives next door at No.44, the Nelson public house is No.46 on the corner.
You see significance of access from Packer's back yard to Dutfields Yard?

[New Waterloo]

Hello Jon, I am not really sure about the significance but I suppose I am surprised that there is a route to and from Dutfields yard without going through the club door at the front of the gates. However I do appreciate that any route in or out would require going through the houses of number 42, 44 or the pub. and would require the occupants to be aware. Having said that it wouldn't be beyond belief that somebody in the pub could hide in the yard back yard after the pub closes. I have heard of this in modern times where people have hidden on pub premises to burgle them when the publican goes to bed. Has Pipeman somehow achieved this and exits the yard through the pub. No that would not work because Stride is still alive. Not sure what it means but is a route in and out, all be it possibly through peoples living rooms. Thanks for the map

Regards

Richard NW

[New Waterloo]

I meant through front door of club or the gates

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon, I am not really sure about the significance but I suppose I am surprised that there is a route to and from Dutfields yard without going through the club door at the front of the gates. However I do appreciate that any route in or out would require going through the houses of number 42, 44 or the pub. and would require the occupants to be aware. Having said that it wouldn't be beyond belief that somebody in the pub could hide in the yard back yard after the pub closes. I have heard of this in modern times where people have hidden on pub premises to burgle them when the publican goes to bed. Has Pipeman somehow achieved this and exits the yard through the pub. No that would not work because Stride is still alive. Not sure what it means but is a route in and out, all be it possibly through peoples living rooms. Thanks for the map

Regards

Richard NW

The pub on the corner, the Nelson, was supposed to close at midnight - that was the law for all pubs within a radius of, I think, Charing Cross, but anyway, it was closed by the time this murder happened.
Packer, he shut up shop (his window) just after 12:30, it's difficult to see how anyone could use those premises as an escape route.
There may have been an escape route going the other way, behind the club, I marked one potential route with a red line, that divides in two, on this map.

[Lewis C]

We seem to be narrowing down the possibilities!


Doesn't that version of the story explain why she didn't see Smith?

Had Fanny been at her doorstep prior to 12:45, who should she have seen and mentioned seeing, that she didn't? Eagle and Lave didn't mention seeing each other, or anyone else of note. Does that mean they could not have been on the street when they thought they were?

Do you mean that it explains why she didn't see Smith because she said she was at the door nearly the whole time, meaning not quite the whole time, so Smith could have passed during that small part of the time when she wasn't at the door? If so, I would say that's possible but not probable.

I guess I see Mortimer's situation different than that of most witnesses in that she's just standing there, doing nothing but watching, while others are going somewhere, more likely to have things on their mind, and less likely to notice everything. Also, do we have a statement from Eagle or Lave saying, "I didn't see anyone except..."? That's a good point though.

[Lewis C]

Assuming all quotes are of Fanny.

I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Does she mean?...

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I would have seen him.

OR

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock that must have been the man I did see.

Weren't there other ways of exiting the Socialist Club besides through the yard/gates?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi George.

I thought Mrs Artisan & Mrs Mortimer were the same woman, their stories being quite similar, but you're right Mrs Artisan does appear to describe a man with a black bag going in the opposite direction to what we believe Goldstein did.
So we must question if the two women are the same woman, and/or the two men with bags, are the same man, and/or is/are he/they walking in the same or opposite directions.
Then there are potential errors by the journalist or editor to consider.
Too many questions

While I consider Mrs Artisan & Mrs Mortimer to be the same woman, I don't think the "apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan" comment can be casually ignored.

The preamble to the interview is worth a thought ...

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

Did she know she was in conversation with a journalist? What impact might that have had on what she told the man?

Perhaps the man apparently not acquiring the woman's name is a clue, or did she want to remain anonymous?

As for the direction taken by black bag man, I wonder if Walter Dew really knew the truth of the matter?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hello Jon, I am not really sure about the significance but I suppose I am surprised that there is a route to and from Dutfields yard without going through the club door at the front of the gates. However I do appreciate that any route in or out would require going through the houses of number 42, 44 or the pub. and would require the occupants to be aware. Having said that it wouldn't be beyond belief that somebody in the pub could hide in the yard back yard after the pub closes. I have heard of this in modern times where people have hidden on pub premises to burgle them when the publican goes to bed. Has Pipeman somehow achieved this and exits the yard through the pub. No that would not work because Stride is still alive. Not sure what it means but is a route in and out, all be it possibly through peoples living rooms. Thanks for the map

Regards

Richard NW

Great post N.W.


Perhaps the significance is that Le Grand chose Packer to interrogate in order to create a story.

Why would he do that AFTER Packer had already told the police he saw nothing?

IF the killer used the yard of 44 to hide, then perhaps there was more of reason to "question" Packer to then conveniently describe a man buying grapes, who wasn't the ripper and didn't resemble the ripper.

Ulterior motives at play.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Do you mean that it explains why she didn't see Smith because she said she was at the door nearly the whole time, meaning not quite the whole time, so Smith could have passed during that small part of the time when she wasn't at the door? If so, I would say that's possible but not probable.

I guess I see Mortimer's situation different than that of most witnesses in that she's just standing there, doing nothing but watching, while others are going somewhere, more likely to have things on their mind, and less likely to notice everything. Also, do we have a statement from Eagle or Lave saying, "I didn't see anyone except..."? That's a good point though.

Has anyone ever questioned why nobody seems to have seen PC Smith in Berner Street?

Funny that


RD