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  • Respectfully...


    What we have witnessed over the past couple of pages, is what we tend to endure on other threads, when we feel we are getting somewhere but are encouraged to pursue areas of the case for fear of stepping on other's toes.

    It's like children at a party who are determined to spoil the party for everyone else because they've realized it's not just their party and the focus is away from them.


    PLEASE STOP with the political discussion; it has NOTHING to do with the case and is only being perpetuated by a few who are throwing their toys out of the pram because some of us are making ground and raising points that warrant further discussion and analysis.

    Distraction techniques are not only ridiculous; they're blatantly unfair and disrespectful to those of us who want to discuss the case.


    I can understand how there are those who don't want to ask questions that go against the grain; or dismiss those who have the objectiveness and vision to create new hypotheses that could highlight something new and unprecedented.

    It's often a psychological ploy to distract from the point of the thread, so as to saturate the thread with content that is completely irrelevant to the case.

    I find it astonishing and unbelievable how such brilliant minds and incredibly learned and intelligent people can behave in a way that dilutes the important content, so as to try and deter those of us who want to discuss ONLY the case from pursuing the thread further.

    Trying to kill the thread by adding unrelated comments is simply not fair.

    It's happened on the Richardson thread, it's happened on every Lechmere thread, it's happening now on this thread...


    With the utmost respect...PLEASE refrain from submitting comments that are totally and utterly unrelated to the case.


    Let's focus on why we are all here.


    P.s.
    If Schwartz is to be believed, then he witnessed the moments before her murder and it's unlikely that Stride was a ripper victim. There's no way that the real ripper would have thrown her down with both Pipeman and Schwartz looking on...and the random Sweetheart couple etc...

    The ripper would have led her there, convinced her to go in the alleyway with him (perhaps to go into the club through the side door to have a drink together) and then as she prepared to take out a Cachous, he cut her throat through her windpipe leaving her unable to make a sound... and left the scene...all in under 30 seconds.


    RD
    "Great minds, don't think alike"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

      Hi New Waterloo,

      If Schartz is to be believed, there was an incident that could be described as an attack, with Stride being thrown to the ground, or perhaps as a domestic dispute where perhaps BSMan released his grip on Stride and she fell to the ground. Either way, this seems to me to be the occasion where she acquired the mud on her dress and face. Lamb testified that her clothing was not dishevelled, and it appeared that she had been lowered to the ground. I would suggest that after the initial incident she arose and was persuaded, by someone, to proceed towards the clubhouse, and was then seized and murdered. Two separate incidents. The blood flowed towards the street, as would have any mud after the rain.

      Cheers, George
      Hi George.

      Do you think BS-man walked her back into the shadows to kill her, or did he leave, and there was someone else back there who did the same?
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
        .
        If Schwartz is to be believed, then he witnessed the moments before her murder and it's unlikely that Stride was a ripper victim. There's no way that the real ripper would have thrown her down with both Pipeman and Schwartz looking on...and the random Sweetheart couple etc...

        The ripper would have led her there, convinced her to go in the alleyway with him (perhaps to go into the club through the side door to have a drink together) and then as she prepared to take out a Cachous, he cut her throat through her windpipe leaving her unable to make a sound... and left the scene...all in under 30 seconds.

        RD
        Hi RD,

        I absolutely agree with your first paragraph, and your second paragraph except that it was not BSMan in the leading role and as such, that man may have been the ripper.

        Cheers, George
        It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

        Comment


        • I'd just like to highlight the sequence of movements that Schwartz claimed he saw BS Man make.

          He says that he saw BS Man APPROACH her; suggesting that BS Man WASN'T ALREADY STANDING WITH HER and had just walked up to her.

          STRIDE is already standing BY HERSELF AT THE GATEWAY

          Schwartz then says that BS Man then attacked Stride, but initially, he appears to try and drag Stride into the Street, ergo, AWAY FROM THE YARD.

          BS Man then appears to spin her around and then THROW HER DOWN to the ground onto the FOOTWAY.

          Schwartz's proximity to BS Man would appear to be very close; because he implies that he is just a few yards away when the assault occurs.

          He then crosses the road to avoid the apparent domestic.

          It's at THIS POINT when he claims that BS Man shouts over to Pipeman "Lipski"

          Schwartz's focus from THIS POINT is NOT ON STRIDE, meaning that from the point that BS man shouts out, Schwartz's focus is on Pipeman and trying to get away from the scene.

          Schwartz seems to suggest he believed that Pipeman was with BS man, but we have BS man traveling south towards the club, and we have Pipeman already standing on the other side of the road, i.e. Pipeman does NOT walk with BS man at any point.

          It is possible that Stride may oft had her throat cut just moments AFTER BS Man shouts out to Pipeman, because Schwartz does not observe Stride AFTER she has been thrown to the ground.

          Could the 3 intermittent screams have come from Stride as a result of her windpipe having been cut as she is thrown onto the floor? I.e. could she have tried to scream, but only 3 small screams were audible due to her windpipe having been cut?


          Going back to the actions of BS Man...

          On the attack on Emily Edith Smith, November 5th 1892... her assailant grabbed her, pulled her towards him, and then tried to spin her around to get behind her to push her up against the wall, whilst drawing a long knife at the same time.
          Emily saw the knife and grappled with her attacker and just as he was about to spin her around, she managed to raise her knee hard and fast into his groin. he then lunged at her with the knife and just missed; she managed to strafe to the side, scream, and run towards the main road, upon which her attacker disappeared in the fog.

          The reason why I mention this case, is because I believe that the actions of the man who assaulted Emily Smith bear striking similarities to BS Man's assault on Stride.

          Schwartz said he saw BS Man trying to pull her towards the street..but what if that action of puling her towards the street, was in fact his attempt to get the physical leverage to spin her around to get behind her and then throw her to the floor.

          i.e. A slingshot motion.

          Schwartz would then be correct in observing BS Man motion Stride towards the street, but perhaps the intent was to get behind her and a good way to accomplish that would be to use the slingshot motion.

          He could have just thrown her to the floor, but I think the action of his appearing to bring Stride toward the street before he throws her down onto the footway may have been misinterpreted by Schwartz.

          Schwartz was correct in observing the motion of BS Man, but not his physical intent.


          The question then is... was BS Man the SAME MAN who attacked Emily Smith in 1892?


          Do the descriptions match?


          Even more interestingly...Emily Smith later stated she saw the man who attacked her a short while after the incident. At the time, the man was standing WITH ANOTHER MAN whom she recognized as a known local business man.

          Was THIS local businessman actually Pipeman?


          And does this suggest that the killer of Stride was the work of 2 men?


          Lots to ponder


          RD
          "Great minds, don't think alike"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Hi George.

            Do you think BS-man walked her back into the shadows to kill her, or did he leave, and there was someone else back there who did the same?
            Hi Jon,

            I can only speculate, but I think that BSMan left having been warned off by either Parcelman returning from within the yard or the club, or Pipeman approaching after making a minor move on Schwartz. Either of those two could have projected the role of defender escorting fair lady to safety. I should add that I don't discount your wrong street hypothesis either.

            Cheers, George
            It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

            All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

            ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

              Hi Jon,

              From the Inquest: Brown:

              When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian- street, and a man called him to Berner-street.

              Who was the man that called Collins to Berner St? It can't have been Diemshitz as he was by then at the yard. It can't have been Koze as he was by then with Eagle on Commercial Rd. IMO it was Jacobs.
              What about Harris?

              Koze (AKA Issacs) left the yard first, headed for Fairclough,
              Yes.

              ..but turned up Batty towards the Commercial Rd where he found Eagle, and then Lamb.
              This is a suggestion right, I don't recall anything to suggest Koz separated from Diemshutz, yet Spooner saw two men come past him.

              Eagle left next headed for Commercial Road.
              Eagle left the yard after Diem. & Koz left, yes.

              Diemshitz and Jacobs left shortly after, and were the two "jews" seen running down Fairclough towards Grove.
              I think you are trying to work this Jacobs into the scenario by pushing Koz out?

              On their return they encounter Spooner, and Diemshitz returns with him leaving Jacobs to continue the search in that area, and Jacobs finds Collins. This hypothesis does not rely on misprint or mistaken identity, which I don't find tenable. While I appreciate your point of view, I must in this case respectfully disagree.

              Cheers, George
              OK, so you choose to create a scenario to fit someone who never existed? And in doing so, you change the story line suggested by the evidence.
              Why does this "Jacobs" character matter so much to you?
              Does he appear anywhere else in the story?
              Why cling to someone who nobody saw?
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                Hi NBFN!

                East London Advertiser, Saturday, 6 October 1888

                (the man also mentioned in ​the Echo, London 1 October 1888 & The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, 2 October, 1888)

                "A man was brought to the Leman-street station on Sunday night, under circumstances which gave the police hopes at first that they had made an important capture. He was arrested, it seems, near Mitre-court, and could give no satisfactory account of himself. His appearance was anything but prepossessing. He was a short, thickset man of about 30, close shaven. Upon him was found 1s. 4d. in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, evidently those of a woman. In reply to the inspector, he said that he had walked from Southampton, and belonged to the Royal Sussex Regiment (the very regiment, it will be remembered, whose cognisances was on the envelope found in the pocket of the Buck's-row victim). An examination of his boots, however, was not at all confirmatory of this statement, and he was taken to the cells for inquiries to be made about him. The man was ultimately released".

                Im wondering whether it is possible that he is the same man of 10 November 1888 after the Kelly murder:

                Evening News, London, 10 November 1888 & Daily News, 10 November 1888

                "One unfortunate foreigner, whose physiognomy was certainly not prepossessing, was taken into Commercial street Police station, when it turned out that that was the third time he had been arrested on suspicion of being Jack the Ripper, in the course of these murders. What with his odd face, his deprecatory shrugs and posturings, and his broken English as he tried to answer the interrogatories put to him, his examination was irresistibly comic. "How d'ye manage to get into trouble like this, then?" demanded an officer. "What do you do? What makes people pounce on you?" "Dat is ze zing," said the unlucky fellow spreading the palms of his hands and shrugging his shoulders. "Zat is what I like to know. Why do zey?" He had given a false name at his lodging house, but that, he tried to explain, was because "it eez not grand to leave in a lodging house."

                "His appearance was anything but prepossessing" (October 1888) & "whose physiognomy was certainly not prepossessing" (November 1888).

                If so, it could be the man, a foreigner, mentioned in the press reports of mid- October 1888. Arrested on 1 October 1888 (after the Double Event), mid- October 1888 (see Batty Street-story) & on 10. November 1888 (after the Kelly murder). Its pure speculation. I dont think that his description fits "Pipeman" or "BS Man" but who knows... It also seems that N.Benelius had been questioned more than once, in the case of Stride and after the Kelly murder.

                Here two links to look for men arrested:





                Karsten.



                Comment


                • Just another observation...

                  Why do some of the witness statements state they saw blood running from Stride and down to the door of the club...

                  And yet others state they saw blood running "FROM THE DIRECTION OF THE GATE"

                  That indicated clearly which direction the blood was flowing of course, but the way some of the statements read, it could also imply that the blood was running from the gate itself.

                  The key word is "Direction"

                  But if they blood was running from Stride to the doorway, why would anyone say that the blood was running "from the direction of the gate" instead of
                  "the blood was running from her neck"
                  "running from her neck toward the door?"
                  "running toward the door from her neck"

                  By mentioning the gateway itself, is there ANY evidence to suggest that her throat was initially cut at the gateway and her body was moved after her throat was cut?


                  By stating that a person sees blood running FROM the DIRECTION of one location (gateway) towards another location (side door), then it implies the person is standing by the body and gesturing FROM THERE...TO THERE...

                  It Stride was laying in the gateway, then the comment of blood running from the Gateway makes sense...but the context doesn't work if her body is found where she was actually found and then for multiple witnesses to state they saw blood running FROM THE DIRECTION OF THE GATEWAY.

                  Was her body moved post-mortem BEFORE the police arrived?


                  RD
                  "Great minds, don't think alike"

                  Comment


                  • Hi All


                    I've just found a very interesting newspaper article that I've not seen before and I think it's rather fascinating.


                    It's an article published in the 'West Lothian Courier' on Saturday 3rd November 1888


                    The article itself relates to an incident that occurred on Saturday 27th October... exactly 4 weeks AFTER the murder of Stride.


                    It concerns a certain Matthew Packer and personally, I think it raises a LOT more questions...IF, just IF, Packer is to be believed.


                    Read it for yourself and please tell me your thoughts.


                    Remember, the location is near his fruit stall...4 weeks AFTER the murder...

                    I particularly like the mention of the "passing Tramcar"


                    Click image for larger version

Name:	West_Lothian_Courier_and_Gener_03_November_1888_0003_Clip.jpg
Views:	140
Size:	246.2 KB
ID:	819239


                    IF to be believed...what does this article tell us?


                    Thoughts?


                    Rd
                    "Great minds, don't think alike"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                      What about Harris?

                      This is a suggestion right, I don't recall anything to suggest Koz separated from Diemshutz, yet Spooner saw two men come past him.

                      Eagle left the yard after Diem. & Koz left, yes.

                      I think you are trying to work this Jacobs into the scenario by pushing Koz out?

                      OK, so you choose to create a scenario to fit someone who never existed? And in doing so, you change the story line suggested by the evidence.
                      Why does this "Jacobs" character matter so much to you?
                      Does he appear anywhere else in the story?
                      Why cling to someone who nobody saw?
                      Hi Jon,

                      I agree that Harris is the other possibility. With all due respect, the evidence is that Jacobs existed because Eagle named him as leaving with another man to search for a P.C.. You are choosing to negate that evidence by claiming a misprint of his name. I have noticed that some reports of the inquest have more detail than others, and the others didn't quote Eagle as naming Diemshitz rather than Jacobs, they just left out that detail altogether. I am reluctant to discard this extra information.

                      Koze said that he failed to find a PC in Fairclough and later went to Commercial Road. Diemshitz didn't mention Koze returning with him to the yard. He mentioned only Spooner. Eagle said he was distressed at the sight of the blood and left immediately to find a PC. Had he turned west at Commercial Road (to allow for the time required for Koze to get to Grove St and back) he may very well have run into Smith. If he turned east into Commercial he would have been at the corner of Batty in time to meet Koze had the later proceeded up that road, which would mean Koze wasn't one of the men seen by Spooner and Brown.

                      You are suggesting that I am creating a scenario to fit someone who never existed and who nobody saw, but Eagle testified that he saw Jacobs form part of a search party. If I can be permitted to volley a couple of your questions back over the net, why does dismissing Jacobs matter so much to you, and why cling to a story that requires sworn testimony to be dismissed?

                      Cheers, George
                      It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                        Hi All


                        I've just found a very interesting newspaper article that I've not seen before and I think it's rather fascinating.


                        It's an article published in the 'West Lothian Courier' on Saturday 3rd November 1888


                        The article itself relates to an incident that occurred on Saturday 27th October... exactly 4 weeks AFTER the murder of Stride.


                        It concerns a certain Matthew Packer and personally, I think it raises a LOT more questions...IF, just IF, Packer is to be believed.


                        Read it for yourself and please tell me your thoughts.


                        Remember, the location is near his fruit stall...4 weeks AFTER the murder...

                        I particularly like the mention of the "passing Tramcar"


                        Click image for larger version  Name:	West_Lothian_Courier_and_Gener_03_November_1888_0003_Clip.jpg Views:	0 Size:	246.2 KB ID:	819239


                        IF to be believed...what does this article tell us?


                        Thoughts?


                        Rd
                        Hi RD,

                        You might recall that Packer originally said that he thought the man lived locally, "just one street over" I think he said (Batty or Providence?) as he had seen him several times before that night. I believe the fruit stall mentioned was his mobile stall which he used for selling fruit in Commercial Road. The consensus when this has been discussed previously is that Packer was trying to retrieve his place in the spotlight. He claimed some time after this that at a later date the man in question had physically attacked and injured him.

                        I am not as sceptical of Packer's stories as some, but I suspect he was somewhat prone to embellishment.

                        Cheers, George
                        It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                        Comment


                        • Hi New Waterloo,

                          I need to correct my reply to you in my post #886 where I said "The blood flowed towards the street, as would have any mud after the rain". This is incorrect. The blood actually flowed away from the street, towards a grate near the kitchen door in the clubhouse.

                          Cheers, George
                          It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                          All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                            Hi All


                            I've just found a very interesting newspaper article that I've not seen before and I think it's rather fascinating.


                            It's an article published in the 'West Lothian Courier' on Saturday 3rd November 1888


                            The article itself relates to an incident that occurred on Saturday 27th October... exactly 4 weeks AFTER the murder of Stride.


                            It concerns a certain Matthew Packer and personally, I think it raises a LOT more questions...IF, just IF, Packer is to be believed.


                            Read it for yourself and please tell me your thoughts.


                            Remember, the location is near his fruit stall...4 weeks AFTER the murder...

                            I particularly like the mention of the "passing Tramcar"


                            Click image for larger version  Name:	West_Lothian_Courier_and_Gener_03_November_1888_0003_Clip.jpg Views:	0 Size:	246.2 KB ID:	819239


                            IF to be believed...what does this article tell us?


                            Thoughts?


                            Rd
                            Hi RD,

                            Some reports:

                            Echo, 20 October 1888

                            "The police complain that their work is increased, and morbid excitement created, by the statements made as to alleged arrests of an important character. Both the Metropolitan and City police deny that there was an American or any other man suspected at Bermondsey, whose apprehension was reported to have taken place. There is a clue upon which the authorities have been zealously working for some time. This is in Whitechapel, not far from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy, and the man is, indeed, himself aware that he is being watched; so much so, that, as far as observation has gone at present, he has scarcely ventured out of doors. The police called on Mr. Packer, of 44, Berner-street, yesterday morning; and later on an Echo reporter also saw him as to what had transpired. Mr. Packer was rather reticent; but, when asked his opinion as to where the murderer lodged - for he had seen him several times before the fatal night - remarked, "In the next street." It is considered he is not far wrong in his conjecture; but the police do not deem it prudent to say what steps are being taken in the matter".​

                            Evening News, London, 31 October 1888

                            "WHAT MATTHEW PACKER SAYS.

                            A representative of The Evening News this morning had an interview with Mr. Matthew Packer, at 44, Berner-street, with reference to the rumour that the supposed Whitechapel assassin had been seen by him again on Saturday last. Packer made the following statement:

                            "Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last, I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."

                            "I can tell you what it was. I was pretty night knocked over with fright. It gave me such a turn as I have never had in my life. I was too frightened and staggered to know what I was about, and I saw in a minute that the man knew me as well. He looked hard at me as he passed, and then turned round and passed again, with a most vicious look on his face, that made me think I should not have liked to have been with him in any quiet corner. I'm sure he'd have killed me. He walked by four times altogether, and I thought he wanted to get close to me, so I kept moving round to the north side of my barrow. I then called to a young chap that I knew who was standing at the corner of the street, and asked him to keep an eye on the man, as I was afraid he meant mischief. There were no policemen in sight, and I was afraid to lose sight of the man. I sent the young chap for a policeman, and the man seeing there was something up jumped into a tram that was going to Blackwall".​


                            Echo, 31 October 1888

                            "Mr. Matthew Packer, who keeps a fruit shop next to the gate-way where the Berner-street murder was committed, has stated to a reporter that this last night or two he has felt alarmed owing to his having seen a man exactly like the one who bought the grapes off him for the unfortunate murdered woman Elizabeth Stride, a short time before the murder was committed. Last Saturday night, he says, he was standing in the Commercial-road when he caught sight of the man staring at him. After passing and repassing him several times the man came behind him, looking menacingly at him. He got frightened, drew a shoe-black's attention to the fellow, who then disappeared. He declares that he kept on the look-out for a policeman; but none came, and the strange visitor got away in a tram. Such is the story a Correspondent sends. It seems improbable".​

                            Evening News, 31 October 1888

                            "Last night, Mr. Matthew Packer, who keeps a fruitshop next to the gateway where the Berner-street murder was committed, stated that this last night or two he has felt greatly alarmed owing to his having seen a man exactly like the one who bought the grapes off him for the unfortunate murdered woman, Elizabeth Stride, a short time before the murder was committed. He alleges that he had often seen the man before the murder, as well as the woman who was murdered in Berner-street, but he had not seen any one resembling the man since the murder till he saw him again last Saturday night.

                            He was then standing with his fruit stall in the Commercial-road when he caught sight of him staring him full in the face. He kept calm and collected for a little time, hoping that a policeman would come by, but not one came. After passing and repassing him several times, the man then came behind him in the horse road looking in a very evil and menacing manner at him. He was so terrified that he left his stall and ran to a shoeblack that was near, and, pointing to the man, asked him to keep his eye on him and watch him.

                            His great fear was that the fellow was going to stab him to prevent him from identifying him, should anything be brought against him, or his arrest take place. No sooner, however, had he called the shoeblack's attention to him, than he ran away as fast as he could and succeeded in getting on a passing tram. He would have followed the tram had he been able to run, or if he could have left his stall, but he could not has he had several pounds of fruit on it. He has little doubt about him being the man, as he knew him again in a moment".


                            Irish Times Dublin, Thursday, 15 November 1888

                            "Mr Packer, the fruiterer who sold some grapes to the man supposed to have committed the former murders, states that on Tuesday two men came to his shop, one of whom stated he was sure he knew the murderer, who was a cousin of his own. The cousin had been in America, and returned seven or eight months ago. He came to see witness, and they took some walks. Seeing some prostitutes he said, "Do you know how we used to serve them where I come from. We used to cut their throats and rip them up. I could do it in no time. We Jack Rippers killed lots of women, and I am going to be London Jack Ripper." The man said he took little notice of the remarks, but as the murders followed he felt he ought not to remain silent. The cousin constantly used the word "Boss" in the style of the letters received. These facts were communicated by a reporter to the Home Secretary, who instituted inquiries. The supposed murderer is engaged on the Thames, and search is being made".​

                            ​Karsten.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


                              Jacobs doesn't exist
                              lol

                              You only need to go back to that one question from the coroner, there was only one reply by Eagle.
                              He can't say "Jacobs" to the Times reporter, but say "Diemshutz" to every other reporter in the room.
                              Of course it's a misprint.


                              George, if you truly want to believe in Jacobs, you must demonstrate exactly how that exchange between the coroner & Eagle happend, for one reporter to hear Jacobs, yet all the rest heard Diemshutz?
                              Please...explain this.
                              Hi Jon,

                              From The Daily Telegraph - Coroner and Eagle:

                              [Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No. As soon as I struck the match I perceived a lot of blood, and I ran away and called the police.
                              [Coroner]
                              Were the clothes of the deceased disturbed? - I cannot say. I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street. In Commercial-road I found two constables at the corner of Grove-street. I told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street, and they returned with me.

                              From The Times (London):


                              Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police. I did not touch her.
                              The CORONER. - Did you see if her clothes were disturbed?
                              Witness. - I could not say. When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!" On getting to the corner of Grove-street I saw two constables, and told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street.


                              I can see the point you are making, but in the Telegraph Eagle names Diemshitz and another man, and in the Times he names Jacobs and another man. So Diemshitz and Jacobs fit both descriptions with a difference only in the detail. Eagle appeared before Diemshitz, so the journalists may not have yet been aware of the significance of the persons involved?

                              The Times mentions Isaac, but the Daily telegraph doesn't. Maybe Isaac didn't exist either?

                              Cheers, George​​
                              It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                              All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                              ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

                                Hi RD,

                                Some reports:

                                Echo, 20 October 1888

                                "The police complain that their work is increased, and morbid excitement created, by the statements made as to alleged arrests of an important character. Both the Metropolitan and City police deny that there was an American or any other man suspected at Bermondsey, whose apprehension was reported to have taken place. There is a clue upon which the authorities have been zealously working for some time. This is in Whitechapel, not far from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy, and the man is, indeed, himself aware that he is being watched; so much so, that, as far as observation has gone at present, he has scarcely ventured out of doors. The police called on Mr. Packer, of 44, Berner-street, yesterday morning; and later on an Echo reporter also saw him as to what had transpired. Mr. Packer was rather reticent; but, when asked his opinion as to where the murderer lodged - for he had seen him several times before the fatal night - remarked, "In the next street." It is considered he is not far wrong in his conjecture; but the police do not deem it prudent to say what steps are being taken in the matter".​

                                Evening News, London, 31 October 1888

                                "WHAT MATTHEW PACKER SAYS.

                                A representative of The Evening News this morning had an interview with Mr. Matthew Packer, at 44, Berner-street, with reference to the rumour that the supposed Whitechapel assassin had been seen by him again on Saturday last. Packer made the following statement:

                                "Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last, I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."

                                "I can tell you what it was. I was pretty night knocked over with fright. It gave me such a turn as I have never had in my life. I was too frightened and staggered to know what I was about, and I saw in a minute that the man knew me as well. He looked hard at me as he passed, and then turned round and passed again, with a most vicious look on his face, that made me think I should not have liked to have been with him in any quiet corner. I'm sure he'd have killed me. He walked by four times altogether, and I thought he wanted to get close to me, so I kept moving round to the north side of my barrow. I then called to a young chap that I knew who was standing at the corner of the street, and asked him to keep an eye on the man, as I was afraid he meant mischief. There were no policemen in sight, and I was afraid to lose sight of the man. I sent the young chap for a policeman, and the man seeing there was something up jumped into a tram that was going to Blackwall".​


                                Echo, 31 October 1888

                                "Mr. Matthew Packer, who keeps a fruit shop next to the gate-way where the Berner-street murder was committed, has stated to a reporter that this last night or two he has felt alarmed owing to his having seen a man exactly like the one who bought the grapes off him for the unfortunate murdered woman Elizabeth Stride, a short time before the murder was committed. Last Saturday night, he says, he was standing in the Commercial-road when he caught sight of the man staring at him. After passing and repassing him several times the man came behind him, looking menacingly at him. He got frightened, drew a shoe-black's attention to the fellow, who then disappeared. He declares that he kept on the look-out for a policeman; but none came, and the strange visitor got away in a tram. Such is the story a Correspondent sends. It seems improbable".​

                                Evening News, 31 October 1888

                                "Last night, Mr. Matthew Packer, who keeps a fruitshop next to the gateway where the Berner-street murder was committed, stated that this last night or two he has felt greatly alarmed owing to his having seen a man exactly like the one who bought the grapes off him for the unfortunate murdered woman, Elizabeth Stride, a short time before the murder was committed. He alleges that he had often seen the man before the murder, as well as the woman who was murdered in Berner-street, but he had not seen any one resembling the man since the murder till he saw him again last Saturday night.

                                He was then standing with his fruit stall in the Commercial-road when he caught sight of him staring him full in the face. He kept calm and collected for a little time, hoping that a policeman would come by, but not one came. After passing and repassing him several times, the man then came behind him in the horse road looking in a very evil and menacing manner at him. He was so terrified that he left his stall and ran to a shoeblack that was near, and, pointing to the man, asked him to keep his eye on him and watch him.

                                His great fear was that the fellow was going to stab him to prevent him from identifying him, should anything be brought against him, or his arrest take place. No sooner, however, had he called the shoeblack's attention to him, than he ran away as fast as he could and succeeded in getting on a passing tram. He would have followed the tram had he been able to run, or if he could have left his stall, but he could not has he had several pounds of fruit on it. He has little doubt about him being the man, as he knew him again in a moment".


                                Irish Times Dublin, Thursday, 15 November 1888

                                "Mr Packer, the fruiterer who sold some grapes to the man supposed to have committed the former murders, states that on Tuesday two men came to his shop, one of whom stated he was sure he knew the murderer, who was a cousin of his own. The cousin had been in America, and returned seven or eight months ago. He came to see witness, and they took some walks. Seeing some prostitutes he said, "Do you know how we used to serve them where I come from. We used to cut their throats and rip them up. I could do it in no time. We Jack Rippers killed lots of women, and I am going to be London Jack Ripper." The man said he took little notice of the remarks, but as the murders followed he felt he ought not to remain silent. The cousin constantly used the word "Boss" in the style of the letters received. These facts were communicated by a reporter to the Home Secretary, who instituted inquiries. The supposed murderer is engaged on the Thames, and search is being made".​

                                ​Karsten.
                                Hi Karsten,

                                Great post, far more informative than my memories. Interesting that the stall was on the corner of Greenfield St, with Kosminski's brother living at No 74. That last story from the Irish Times doesn't, IMO, do much for Packer's credibility. Do you recall Packer claiming to have later been attacked by said man, or is that a figment of my imagination?

                                Cheers, George
                                It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                                All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

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