The Stride Murder

[Aethelwulf]

The length of the blade found by Coram is not that clear George.

It seems few press reports carried any real discription of the knife.
The Daily Telegraph on 4th says

" the blade which was discoloured with something resembling blood, was quite a foot long and an inch broad, whilst the black handle was six inches in length."

That suggests about a foot or 12 inches, possibly slightly less.

One of the few other reports appears in the

East London Observer, which merely says the blade was apparently about 10 inches.

Given the blade was shown to Coram at the inquest, this report gives the impression of being written by someone who was not present, possible a 2nd hand report.

Steve

What's your take on this knife Steve. With a blade of ~12 inches and a handle of ~6 inches, that's an instrument of about 18 inches. That's not something easy to carry around. Why is the end rounded? I wonder if he was carrying it down his belt down and rounded the end to make it safer to carry. I wonder if instead of making two cuts with a shorter knife he thought he'd try a single 'slice' with something longer. Of course it may nothing to do with the murder.

[Elamarna]

What's your take on this knife Steve. With a blade of ~12 inches and a handle of ~6 inches, that's an instrument of about 18 inches. That's not something easy to carry around. Why is the end rounded? I wonder if he was carrying it down his belt down and rounded the end to make it safer to carry. I wonder if instead of making two cuts with a shorter knife he thought he'd try a single 'slice' with something longer. Of course it may nothing to do with the murder.

Why was it rounded?

The end had been turned over the discription says, possible on a larger one, if memory serves.

I personally think the odds on the Coram knife being related to the Stride Murder are very, very small.

Neither Doctor believed it was a good choice for the murder weapon, although they admitted it could have caused the cut to the throat.

I further suggest that a blade of 6 or 8 inches would easily have committed all the cuts at the murder scenes.
From my own experience in medical research, I would my self be looking at the lower end of that range. Of course this is a purely personal choice, others may well prefer a slightly longer blade, it's all about what feels good in your hand.

It's also clear that where mutilations occurred a pointed blade was required and used.

Steve

[Aethelwulf]

Why was it rounded?

The end had been turned over the discription says, possible on a larger one, if memory serves.

I personally think the odds on the Coram knife being related to the Stride Murder are very, very small.

Neither Doctor believed it was a good choice for the murder weapon, although they admitted it could have caused the cut to the throat.

I further suggest that a blade of 6 or 8 inches would easily have committed all the cuts at the murder scenes.
From my own experience in medical research, I would my self be looking at the lower end of that range. Of course this is a purely personal choice, others may well prefer a slightly longer blade, it's all about what feels good in your hand.

It's also clear that where mutilations occurred a pointed blade was required and used.

Steve

Apparently blackwell said "The murderer using a sharp, round-pointed instrument would severely handicap himself, as he could only use it one way". I took that to mean the end had been rounded. I was just thinking there is a throat cut that is not quite the same as the others in severity and a knife that seems an unlikely instrument (but could have done it). Perhaps they are related although why the murder would choose something like that is hard to explain. Like you said realistically and practically speaking I think it was something shorter for the murders, perhaps not this one for some reason.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For Michael, who claims that Fanny Mortimer said that she was on her doorstep at 1.00


Daily News, Oct 1st

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work.


Evening News, Oct 1st

The article posted by George.


Illustrated Police News, Oct 6th

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony-cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.


London Evening News, Oct 1st

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

DISTURBING THE MURDERER.

Presuming that the body did not lie in the yard when the policeman passed - and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice - and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. Diemschitz says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.


Morning Advertiser, Oct 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36 Berner street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half past twelve and one o'clock this (Saturday) morning, and I did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club house. On going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates, with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted that murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could be done without the steward's wife hearing the noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.


Pall Mall Gazette, Oct 6th

Mrs Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. As the body when found was quite warm, the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school".


The Times, Oct 1st

Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berners-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, has made the following statement:- ''I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was a row at the Socialists' club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was just after 1 o'clock when I went out, and the only man I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black, shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club and then went round the corner by the Board school.''


So….

As we can all see there isn’t a single mention of Fanny Mortimer actually being on her doorstep at 1.00. Not a single one. It’s a complete invention to bolster a theory.

She said that she went onto her doorstep just after hearing a Constable pass. This would have been a very familiar sound to someone like her as she’d have heard it every single day and probably more than once. So this gives us only three possibilities….

1. That Mrs Mortimer did hear a Constable and went onto her doorstep just after. If this was the case then it had to have been Smith passing at around 12.35. This would have meant her going back inside at around 12.45 which gives us a problem in that she said that she went back out after only 4 minutes. But if course it’s possible that Schwartz passed just after she’d gone back inside.

2. That Smith was later than he stated and passed at 12.45. This still leaves the entirely reasonable possibility that Mortimer was back inside just before 1.00.

3. That it wasn’t a Constable and that Mortimer came onto her doorstep just after 12.45.

Whichever way you look at it Fanny Mortimer is, at the very least, a far from perfect witness. It’s difficult to see how she can be used to ‘prove’ anything.


We also have to note that she heard a horse and cart. At 1.00 in a quiet backstreet how likely is it that this wasn’t Diemschitz?

At no time does she state a specific time that she saw Goldstein and yet Michael claims 12.55 as a fact. How? There is no basis for this in any of the testimony.

And finally, when we factor in that we have no clue about the accuracy of Schwartz time, it’s simply impossible to make the definite claims that Michael makes. It’s absolutely possible and plausible that Fanny Mortimer was indoors when the Schwartz/BS man incident occurred. She probably then came onto her doorstep for 10 minutes going back inside just before 1.00. Whilst she was indoors she heard Diemschitz return at 1.00 and then dashed outside when she heard the commotion a couple of minutes later.

This has to be the common sense approach to the evidence and it beats hand down the suggestion that the club members came up with a plot on-the-spot with the feeblest of motives. Then they avoided the simple and obvious to achieve their aims in favour of a ludicrous one involving one word “Lipski.” Id say….”you couldn’t make it up,” but someone has made it up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Joseph Lave.


Daily New, Oct 1st.

Joseph Love, a man just arrived in England from the United States, and who is living temporarily at the club until he can find lodgings, says:-I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

So 12.30 to 12.40


Evening News, Oct 1st

Our next informant was Joseph Lave, a man just arrived in England from the United States. Lave is now living at the club, till such time as he can find permanent lodgings. What he tells us is this: "I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

So he was in the yard at 12.40 - he’d come into the yard at 12.30 and was in the street until around 1.00.

How does this make sense?

Evening Standard, Oct 1st.

Joseph Lave, an American living temporarily at the club, said - "I was in the Club yard this morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen any body moving about there."

So 12.30 to 12.40


Morning Advertiser (London) Oct 1st

A Russian named Joseph Lave - feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual

So twenty minutes before the body was discovered (which everyone accepted at 1.00) therefore 12.40 to approx 12.45/12.50.


The Times, Oct 1st

Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

So 12.40 to who knows?


Woodford Times (Essex) Oct 5th

Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for about five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert-room without having encountered anything unusual

So 12.40 to approx 12.45/12.50


How can this waffle be used to prove anything?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I don't see how anyone is going to put something together that fits all of the witness statements, which means there will always be disagreement depending on which witnesses you go with. I reckon you'll be having the same conversation in the event this thread reaches 10,000 pages.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't see how anyone is going to put something together that fits all of the witness statements, which means there will always be disagreement depending on which witnesses you go with. I reckon you'll be having the same conversation in the event this thread reaches 10,000 pages.

Thats surely true. Not sure why I have stuck with this conversation for so long. It bugs me when I see general acceptance of the club staff members statements when they very clearly differ from the majority of witness statements given by those who had nothing to lose or gain by simply telling what the time was when they saw something. Diemshitz didnt just drop from the sky with his cart and horse in front of the gates at 1, he came up Berner street, didnt he? Someone was at their door on Berner Street at that same time and saw nothing on the street. Kinda simple as far as I can tell, he didnt arrive at 1. But others prefer suggesting a series of mysterious appearances and disappearances that cannot be validated by anyone else, and are used to explain Israel and Louis's timings.

Im not posting more on this, Ive pointed out what is on paper and still people disagree with the statements because their times wont support Louis's stated arrival time, or Israels stated multi populated street scene...on a street which every witness stated was deserted excluding the young couple. Louis could not have arrived at 1 because we have a PC stating he saw men running for help on Commercial just before 1, and was at the gates at 1. How did men know to seek help before Louis even discovered the body? Amazing feat for sure. Louis could not have first discovered Liz at just after 1 because Johnson couldnt be there at 1:10 if thats correct. So many witnesses claimed to have known of the body before 12:45.... but if you want to suggest they were all wrong by the same amount of time because you prefer to believe that Louis and Israel are more trustworthy on this issue, be my guest.

Anyway, dont anyone direct anything more to me on this thread anymore, believe what you want. It a free country. Id just prefer to discuss the realities with people whose opinions have substance and merit.

[Fiver]

Joseph Lave.


Evening News, Oct 1st

Our next informant was Joseph Lave, a man just arrived in England from the United States. Lave is now living at the club, till such time as he can find permanent lodgings. What he tells us is this: "I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

So he was in the yard at 12.40 - he’d come into the yard at 12.30 and was in the street until around 1.00.

How does this make sense?

Clearly it doesn't make any sense. It's also the only account that claims Lave was outside for half an hour, which contradicts all of the other accounts.

Combining accounts it appears Lave was on the street at 12:30 and saw nothing unusual. Which doesn't mean he didn't see anyone. I doubt Lave would consider a couple standing and talking, a woman standing in their doorway, or a man walking down the street to be unusual. He then returned to the yard and re-entered the club around 12:40.

The wording is vague - Lave could have spent most of those 10 minutes in the street or most of those ten minutes in the yard.

[Michael W Richards]

Clearly it doesn't make any sense. It's also the only account that claims Lave was outside for half an hour, which contradicts all of the other accounts.

Oh, when the statement disagrees with the vast majority of witness accounts, it doesnt make sense? Yet Louis's does? Selective use of logic there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oh, when the statement disagrees with the vast majority of witness accounts, it doesnt make sense? Yet Louis's does? Selective use of logic there.

I challenge you to explain that particular statement of Lave’s. Make sense of it. I look forward to your response.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thats surely true. Not sure why I have stuck with this conversation for so long. It bugs me when I see general acceptance of the club staff members statements when they very clearly differ from the majority of witness statements given by those who had nothing to lose or gain by simply telling what the time was when they saw something. Diemshitz didnt just drop from the sky with his cart and horse in front of the gates at 1, he came up Berner street, didnt he? Someone was at their door on Berner Street at that same time and saw nothing on the street. Kinda simple as far as I can tell, he didnt arrive at 1. But others prefer suggesting a series of mysterious appearances and disappearances that cannot be validated by anyone else, and are used to explain Israel and Louis's timings.

Im not posting more on this, Ive pointed out what is on paper and still people disagree with the statements because their times wont support Louis's stated arrival time, or Israels stated multi populated street scene...on a street which every witness stated was deserted excluding the young couple. Louis could not have arrived at 1 because we have a PC stating he saw men running for help on Commercial just before 1, and was at the gates at 1. How did men know to seek help before Louis even discovered the body? Amazing feat for sure. Louis could not have first discovered Liz at just after 1 because Johnson couldnt be there at 1:10 if thats correct. So many witnesses claimed to have known of the body before 12:45.... but if you want to suggest they were all wrong by the same amount of time because you prefer to believe that Louis and Israel are more trustworthy on this issue, be my guest.

Anyway, dont anyone direct anything more to me on this thread anymore, believe what you want. It a free country. Id just prefer to discuss the realities with people whose opinions have substance and merit.

No response to my quoting of the available evidence of course. What do you do? A Fish.

Perhaps you could discuss your theory with your non-existent supporters?

Your post above shows the depths that you’ll stoop to. No matter that we can show that Lamb said ‘about 1.00’ in all but one quote you keep parroting the one that says ‘just before.’ From a man who didn’t have a watch. But that doesn’t matter to you because you believe that all Victorian slum dwellers had watches and clocks that were more reliable and synchronised than modern day ones.

No plot. The very idea is a joke. That’s why no one agrees with you.

[Michael W Richards]

No response to my quoting of the available evidence of course. What do you do? A Fish.

Perhaps you could discuss your theory with your non-existent supporters?

Your post above shows the depths that you’ll stoop to. No matter that we can show that Lamb said ‘about 1.00’ in all but one quote you keep parroting the one that says ‘just before.’ From a man who didn’t have a watch. But that doesn’t matter to you because you believe that all Victorian slum dwellers had watches and clocks that were more reliable and synchronised than modern day ones.

No plot. The very idea is a joke. That’s why no one agrees with you.

Against my better judgement...and feeling like discussing anything with you is a waste of time, a PC, like Lamb, HAD TO track his time. It was his job to do so. So even if he isnt there until 1.. to make you happy, then why had Eagle gone for help before Louis arrives? As for credible people to discuss the issue with, Im happy that I have some to discuss things with that fit that description. It makes up for the discussions I have had with you.

Everytime you try and diss my ideas you post things that can be easily countered with known data. So, now you have PC Lamb arriving at 1, with Eagle and Issac K, and Louis, unseen by anyone, arriving at that same time. So what prompted Eagle and Issac to have gone for help if Louis hasnt yet arrived and the body isnt even discovered until just after 1? Im sure the rebuttal on that will be another winner. Ive looked at lots of old threads and seen how many times people have blown you off, reminded you about the facts, or even, like me, been rude to you. And yet you still think you have the cred to keep suggesting rather ludicrous things. Im sure thats why you insult rather than rebutt, because you dont have the knowledge or the ability to comprehend this data in the first place.

Anyway, couldnt resist reminding you once more how even when you get your way, like suggesting a beat PC couldnt tell time and he heard of the murder before Louis says he even arrived, there are still a myriad of statements one can use to counter Louis's claims.

[Michael W Richards]

Issac Kozebrodsky, once more...."About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

According to Issac K's statement he met up with Eagle and 2 officers and then they all went to the gates of the club. Lamb says this was at, or just before 1am. Could issac have gone for help and seen Eagle with 2 PC's if Louis is only just arriving and he is the first to find the body? No.

So, If Louis did actually arrive at 1, and summoned anyone to the passageway to show them what he found shortly thereafter, how is possible that Lamb, Eagle and Issac are already back there after finding a PC at nearly 1..as Lamb said? Is this even possible? No.

Morris Eagles remarks, again...."On reentering the club he went to see a friend in an upstairs room and later joined him in singing a Russian-language song. He had been there about twenty minutes when a club member named Gilleman came upstairs and said that there was a dead woman in the yard. Eagle rushed down and arriving at the body, struck a match, upon which he saw that it was lying in a pool of blood. He said the time was now 1.00am".

So, Gilleman comes up to tell him at 1am? How did Gilleman know that any body was there if A) Louis hadnt discovered it yet because he arrived at "precisely at 1"...his words, not mine....and B) If another member already knew about the woman before he came upstairs at 1, how is it that possible considering Louis hadnt even got off his cart yet? Isnt Louis taking credit for first informing the others?

Heschberg..."Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock..". So he not only thinks he saw the woman at around 12:45, but also that he was "ONE of those who first saw the woman. If Louis doesnt even arrive until 1, as he said and Herlock believes, then Heschberg would first be notified around what, 1:05ish? Isnt that after Lamb and Eagle and Issac get to those gates? And if Spooner thinks that he was there around 25 to 1, would that be possible if the men who he saw were not even sent out until around 1:05ish? No.

People like to think Spooners given time was wrong, so.."...stated that between 12.30am and 1.00am, 30th September 1888, he was standing with a young woman outside the Beehive public house on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street. After talking for about 25 minutes, he saw two Jewish men running up the street shouting 'murder' and 'police'. He saw them run as far as Grove Street and then turn back. When he asked them what was the matter, they explained that a woman had been murdered, so he accompanied them back the Dutfield's Yard. He saw the body of Stride in the yard and estimated that there was about fifteen people standing around it". ...and from the Inquest, "I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

How is it that he finds 15 men already there, and its after he sees men running for help and running back...as Herlock would like to believe, at around 1am? Then what time did the men he saw first leave for help? If Spooner isnt there until 1, then according to Louis's time and remarks and with Herlocks support, no-one has yet been sent for help. Louis has only just arrived, according to him. If Louis arrives at 1 or just after, then no-one goes for help for at least a few minutes, which means they would have met with Lamb at what...around 1:10? Then how did Johnson already hear about it and had already arrived there at 1:10? Seems like he must have known ...what, 10 minutes at least before arriving? He was only told of the situation by PC Collins who Lamb sent for help. He was home asleep, got up when he heard the news, dressed and went to the site. How long would that take? Surely 10 minutes? That makes him aware of the situation by 1am, before anyone left for help and when Louis says he first discovers the dead woman. Possible? No.

How is it that Wess, Lave, Eagle and Fanny all state the street was empty when they saw it, yet Israel sees not only the victim, but including himself, 3 people? How do they suddenly appear, and just as suddenly disappear? Improbable, Yes.

Why did Issac K say that when he was called to the yard, at 12:40, the blood from her wound had travelled "and reached the back door of the club. Five or 6 yards. If Louis didnt discover the body until just after 1, how long would that single artery wound need to travel 15-18 feet on the ground? If Issac K said it almost reached the back, (actually the side/kitchen) door, how long would that have taken? Didnt Blackwell say ... "She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed." Was Issac off on his time not only by 20 minutes leading up to 1am, but then another 10-15 minutes to allow for a "relatively slow" blood flow to the side door? That puts Issac at 1:10 only just being called to the yard by Louis, when we can see that he joined Eagle and came back with Lamb at 1. Do those timings work? No. Would a few minutes either way to allow for discrepancies in timings explain the time gap suggested by the above? No.

Before any ridiculous explanations are offered, lets just say that what I quoted above is what those witnesses themselves said. No Michael thoerizing, no Michael tossing out whatever didnt agree with what he proposes, no twisting or excuses. I even left in the time that Herlock believes is accurate, the time given by Louis himself, to help illustrate the plethora of problems with that line of thought, and Louis's arrival and discovery time.

If Liz is found around 12:40-12:45...by someone...then Issac K, Heschberg, Lamb Spooner and Johnsons times can be approximately accurate. They are all within 5 minutes of each other. IF they can be cumulatively accepted, That would mean that IF Lave was there when he said he would have seen all this, that IF Eagle arrived and did what he said, he would have seen all this, and that Louis lied about his arrival time. Not just got the time wrong, he lied.

If you want to, try and create and reconcile all the above using an arrival time by Louis at 1, and first sending out people for help around 1:05.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Against my better judgement...and feeling like discussing anything with you is a waste of time, a PC, like Lamb, HAD TO track his time. It was his job to do so. So even if he isnt there until 1.. to make you happy, then why had Eagle gone for help before Louis arrives? As for credible people to discuss the issue with, Im happy that I have some to discuss things with that fit that description. It makes up for the discussions I have had with you.

You could at least try Michael!!

Lamb - “About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning.”

As any adult will tell you - ‘about’ means that he was ESTIMATING. And the phrase ‘as far as I can tell’ stresses for the person listening that there was doubt involved. Could this be any simpler or clearer Michael? He was ESTIMATING and when you ESTIMATE it means that you are not certain of being correct.

So……Diemschitz returns at approx 1.00 (taking into consideration the vagaries of clocks before you parrot “but he said ‘exactly’) Eagle goes for help and finds Lamb at sometime around 1.05 which, by any usage of the English language, can be classed as ‘about 1.00’ by a man who is ESTIMATING.

Everytime you try and diss my ideas you post things that can be easily countered with known data.

All that’s been done is to post all of the quoted evidence because if someone is quoted as saying “x” 6 times and “y” once you persist in quoting “y” as if it’s a fact simply because it appears to help your cause.

So, now you have PC Lamb arriving at 1, with Eagle and Issac K, and Louis, unseen by anyone, arriving at that same time.

No one has made this claim. It’s a lie.

So what prompted Eagle and Issac to have gone for help if Louis hasnt yet arrived and the body isnt even discovered until just after 1? Im sure the rebuttal on that will be another winner.

You only have to read Michael. Lamb arrived after 1.00. I have never claimed that he arrived at 1.00. We are dealing with ESTIMATES.. Diemschitz approx 1.00. He goes for help just after and returns with Spooner. A very few minutes later Eagle, Kos and Lamb arrive. Spooner ESTIMATES 5 minutes between him getting to the yard and Lamb arriving but as it was an ESTIMATE it could have been 2 or 3 for all that we know.

Ive looked at lots of old threads and seen how many times people have blown you off, reminded you about the facts, or even, like me, been rude to you. And yet you still think you have the cred to keep suggesting rather ludicrous things. Im sure thats why you insult rather than rebutt, because you dont have the knowledge or the ability to comprehend this data in the first place.

Anyone that can call someone a ‘sociopath’ or say that they have learning difficulties and then whine is just a hypocrite. Again, I’ve not personally insulted you. But when people spend more time whining and crying about ‘tone’ than they do discussing the facts it’s clear that it’s simply and obfuscation tactic. Grow up and stick to the case Michael.

Anyway, couldnt resist reminding you once more how even when you get your way, like suggesting a beat PC couldnt tell time and he heard of the murder before Louis says he even arrived, there are still a myriad of statements one can use to counter Louis's claims.

Every one of your points has been countered. And yet again Michael…..WHY DOES NO-ONE AGREE WITH YOU? After all,of these years you’d think that maybe one or two would but no…….zero.

Because you’re wrong and you have to make things up to get to your position.

[Doctored Whatsit]

This was the East End of London in 1888, when most people including police officers, did not carry a watch, and in any event, local clocks were not in sync with GMT or even each other. Louis D quotes a clock, which may or may not have been accurate, but just about everyone else except the doctors were estimating times, and they would have been basing their estimates on different time sources. All times are therefore, of necessity, to be taken as approximate. Discrepancies of a few minutes should not be a surprise.

So Louis D says he arrived at the club at 1 am according to a clock seen in a shop. PC Lamb got the news from the club members "about 1 o'clock as near as I can tell", and went straight to the yard. PC Smith had a beat which took 25 - 30 minutes to cover, and was previously in Berner Street at 12. 30 - 12-35 am, and then returned about 1 am to witness the commotion. He recognised Stride as being someone he had seen on his previous tour. Dr Blackwell says he got the call at 10 minutes past one, and arrived at the scene at 1. 16 am, Johnson puts the call at 5 or 10 past one. All pretty accurate so far.

Fanny Mortimer's account is somewhat confusing, because her time estimates were reported differently in different newspapers, and there is no definitive version. However, her basic story is that shortly after hearing a policeman pass by (12. 30 - 12. 35 am according to PC Smith, about 12. 45 am according to the paper) she went to her front door, and was there for about ten minutes, or most of the time between 12. 30 and 1 am, according to different versions. She saw nothing of significance except Goldstein rushing past shortly before she closed the door and locked up. About four minutes after this she heard Louis D's pony and cart pass by. Then shortly afterwards she heard the commotion and went to investigate.

Spooner was standing nearby, "between half past 12 and 1 o'clock" and after "about 25 minutes" he met with the club members who were seeking a policeman - that would be about 1 am. He then repeated that he stood for about 5 minutes at the top of the street, and then 25 minutes outside the public house - that would be 1 am confirmed again. After Spooner went into the yard, PC Lamb arrived about 5 minutes later. Then Spooner is reported as saying "I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went into the yard." This contradicts all other evidence, including significantly, his own, puts PC Lamb in the yard about 12. 40 am, twenty minutes before he was called, and therefore makes no sense whatever. Strangely, no-one at the inquest noticed this glaringly obvious error, not the Coroner, the jurors, the police, nor any journalists. The only logical conclusions are a) everyone present was asleep or idiots, or b) it is a misprint. I notice that the previous sentence contained the words "twenty five minutes", so I suspect that the journalist rushing with his shorthand, probably simply accidentally recorded "twenty five" twice.

In order to consider the possibility of 25 minutes to one being what Spooner really said, and which others are alleged to have confirmed, let us look at the evidence of PC Smith and Fanny Mortimer. She stood on her doorstep for some time shortly after PC Smith went by. But he passed at about 12. 30 - 12. 35 am, and saw Stride in the street, about the same time that Spooner allegedly went into the yard. So the commotion in the yard needed to have happened while Stride was actually seen in the street by the PC, before Fanny was even at her door, and long before she heard Louis D arrive on the scene to find the body. Clearly this is nonsense.

Much is frequently made of the fact that Fanny didn't see Schwartz. I cannot see this as significant. Sometime between about 12. 35 and perhaps 12. 50 am approximately, either voluntarily or forced, Stride entered the yard. Fanny didn't see this, so as this is claimed to have coincided with the arrival of Schwartz and BS man, Fanny wouldn't have seen them either.