The Stride Murder

[S.Brett]

Given the horse and cart traffic, I wondered if 'mud' was just a euphemism for horse dung. Anywhere horses go we see lumps deposited in the road.

Yes Jon, horse droppings, there were certainly more than enough...

Sweeping the yard, from the middle to the right and to the left, after that, sweeping up the rubbish on the sides. By and by the finer sediments become a kind of "mud"/ "clay" near and along the gutter... and when it rains...

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Wouldnt Wess know what street the club he belonged to and where his business was?

The gateway in Batty street is right beside a pub, which at that time would have closed at midnight. Assuming Schwartz thought he was in Berner Street, it follows that he thinks he is passing the club, then the gateway.
Wess may have offered his services to translate, but Wess was not there, he went home early that night, so if Schwartz says he was in Berner St. who is Wess to argue otherwise?
Wess is going along with what he is told.
Schwartz does not identify the building, pub or club, or the gateway. His attention was focused on the strange man staggering ahead of him.

It also might be that it was as you suggest, but Wess in his translation moved the location to Berner without Israels knowledge.

I suspect the press may have colored the statement to fit Dutfields Yard, because they knew the body was found inside the yard, so they changed the "pull" to a "push", to make it fit.
If there is to be any significance to this witnesses story, it needs some detail to fit the scene of the murder.
The police statement could fit any street, it is devoid of any location details, which is odd.
If it wasn't for Swanson writing he entered Berner St., we wouldn't know, but that is only because he was told it was Berner St. What if it really was Batty?

I guess the other point is if Schwartz run south out of Batty Street, he has a more direct run south straight to the railway arches. He crosses Fairclough, but only diagonally then down Brunswick. Then crosses Ellen diagonally, and down Stutfield, and he is at the railway arches. It's more of a direct run than from Berner St.

If you come up with an obstacle to this explanation just let me know, I'd be more than willing to go over it, with anyone.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Her clothes were not disorganised in any way indicative of being dragged, and where does all this mud come from in a cobbled yard?

So, no dragging, and hence no audible screams. Cachous in hand (almost). It was all over very quickly. Schwartz was so close that he could hear those stifled screams that were inaudible in the kitchen. Apparently, the murderer didn't mind ... makes little sense. So, there was only one man there.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wonder if he walked down Batty St. and saw an altercation in that gateway. If so, then there never was an altercation in Dutfields Yard, no-one else witnesses one.

An altercation involving who?

Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen & he thus describes the first man ...

[GBinOz]

If you come up with an obstacle to this explanation just let me know, I'd be more than willing to go over it, with anyone.

Hi Jon,

An interesting hypothesis indeed. Just to clarify, you are suggesting 22 Batty St as being mistaken for the club, Hampshire Ct as the gateway and the doorway of the Red Lion pub at #24 as the location from which Pipeman emerged?

Some things that spring to mind. Hampshire Ct was a public thoroughfare, so would it have been gated? Schwartz identified Stride's body as the woman he had seen, so are you proposing that after Smith saw Stride and Parcelman they walked up to Hampshire Ct and disappeared into that passage just before Mortimer arrived at her doorstep? Or perhaps Parcelman went into the club and Stride headed towards the Red Lion but was roughed up in Hampshire Ct and then returned to try to find Parcelman in the club? Somehow Stride has to get from the eastern end of Hampshire Ct back to Dutfields Yard without being spotted by Mortimer. Or did all this take place before Smith saw them opposite the yard?

Also, if the kerb that Schwartz was stepping off when Pipeman appeared from the doorway of the Red Lion was the western kerb of Batty St, wouldn't that require Schwartz to be running towards the perceived threat?

Lots of possibilities and an innovative alternative solution. Well done.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

So, no dragging, and hence no audible screams. Cachous in hand (almost). It was all over very quickly. Schwartz was so close that he could hear those stifled screams that were inaudible in the kitchen. Apparently, the murderer didn't mind ... makes little sense. So, there was only one man there.

If Schwartz statement is removed from the scenario, do you still have a problem with the packet of cachous?

[Wickerman]

An altercation involving who?

Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen & he thus describes the first man ...

A man, and a woman in black.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

An interesting hypothesis indeed. Just to clarify, you are suggesting 22 Batty St as being mistaken for the club, Hampshire Ct as the gateway and the doorway of the Red Lion pub at #24 as the location from which Pipeman emerged?

Hi George.
24 Batty was the Red Lion, on the west side.

Hampshire Ct. is on the north side of the pub, I'm looking at the entranceway on the south side.
I don't have a name for it yet, and the P.O. street directory does not identify a public thoroughfare after No.24, so I'm thinking it was private.

[GBinOz]

Hi George.
24 Batty was the Red Lion, on the west side.

Hampshire Ct. is on the north side of the pub, I'm looking at the entranceway on the south side.
I don't have a name for it yet, and the P.O. street directory does not identify a public thoroughfare after No.24, so I'm thinking it was private.

Hi Jon,

Looking at the configuration of that entranceway it appears to provide access to the stone steps leading to the Board School building. If it was private access to the school, and was gated, wouldn't the gates have been closed at that time of night? Of course if the gates were set back from the property line Stride could still have been standing there with the locked gates behind her.

I recall that earlier you mentioned a structure at the SW corner of the Board School, and this can be seen on the map. Interestingly, structures with the same symbols can also be seen at the NW corner of the property, and on the northern boundary of the property adjacent to your entranceway. These are likely to be amenities blocks (toilet and bathing) for the Board School.

If you locate Stride in that entranceway you would seem to have Parcelman emerging from the doorway of the Red Lion behind Schwartz, so Schwartz would have had to have walked past him.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Looking at the configuration of that entranceway it appears to provide access to the stone steps leading to the Board School building. If it was private access to the school, and was gated, wouldn't the gates have been closed at that time of night?

Yes, exactly George, and the police version, as I posted earlier, makes no mention of 'open' gates.
Swanson writes that the woman was standing in the gateway, and she was thrown down on the footway - no mention of the passageway or open gates, they could well have been closed.

I recall that earlier you mentioned a structure at the SW corner of the Board School, and this can be seen on the map. Interestingly, structures with the same symbols can also be seen at the NW corner of the property, and on the northern boundary of the property adjacent to your entranceway. These are likely to be amenities blocks (toilet and bathing) for the Board School.

Possibly.

If you locate Stride in that entranceway you would seem to have Parcelman emerging from the doorway of the Red Lion behind Schwartz, so Schwartz would have had to have walked past him.

No George Stride was never here in Batty St., it was some unknown man arguing with a different woman.
Schwartz never saw Parcel-man, he is over in Berner St. with Stride.

[Wickerman]

George.

What happened in Berner St. was as Packer said, he served Stride with a man who bought a pkg of grapes.
They went to stand by the club, or crossed opposite, then came back, but PC Smith saw Stride with a man carrying a newspaper parcel.
PC Smith walks on, Packer shuts up his shop window, and Stride & Parcel-man enter the dark yard, where Parcel-man kills her.
Thats it.

Over in Batty St. Schwartz is walking down from Comm Rd. and sees some altercation between a man & woman in front of some gates. He crosses over the street to avoid the fracas and sees a man lighting a pipe, both men take off running, but Schwartz thinks pipeman is chasing him, but he was wrong.
Schwartz runs down as far as the railway arches.

Two separate stories, an innocent mistake by Schwartz who thought he was walking down Berner St.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi George.
24 Batty was the Red Lion, on the west side.

Hampshire Ct. is on the north side of the pub, I'm looking at the entranceway on the south side.
I don't have a name for it yet, and the P.O. street directory does not identify a public thoroughfare after No.24, so I'm thinking it was private.

Yes, fascinating indeed.

So IF Schwartz was in Batty Street and NOT Berner Street, that could explain WHY BS man shouted "Lipski!"

A few yards away is 16 Batty Street, the house in which Miriam Angel was murdered by Lipski the year before.

And let's also not forget that 22 Batty Street, the house north of Hampshire Court is where Mrs Kuer's lodger stayed. AKA The Batty Street Lodger.

That would mean that BS man could have attacked Stride just by the alleyway entrance, practically outside Mrs Kuer's house.

Could Stride have been attacked by the alleyway just outside the Red Lion Pub?

So let's hypothesize a little further...

After being attacked by BS man (possibly Michael Kidney her jilted lover) he leaves Batty Street and heads north to the main road, just as Pipeman returns from briefly following Schwartz... Stride is now up and pipeman asks her if she's okay and offers her a smoke from his cigarette/pipe. She smokes it but she hates the taste. He then asks if she would like to go for a drink with him...because the Red Lion has now closed and so he suggests going to the nearby club in Berner Street. They walk through the alleyway and she's still complaining about the taste. They walk into Berner Street and go to the club and stand in the gateway. He gestures to go in via the side door but she tells him she needs something to take the taste of the cigarette away first and so he offers her some cachous that he has on his person, having purchased them from a local shop. She reaches into his pocket and takes out the bag of cachous and as she looks at her hand, Pipeman grabs her and cuts her throat as he lowers her to the floor, pushing her face down into the cobbles. He is then disturbed and his only exit is to go further into the yard. He hides and bides his time before exiting...or he lives in one of the flats in the yard and so he needs just to walk home evading detection...

I do love a hypothesis ha ha!



RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Maybe he actually was in the theatre -- doing three shows on a Saturday in Yiddish (and leaving his wife to move house)...?

M.

Theatrical Man indeed

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hello Wickerman yes you are correct in your comment about Strides clothes not being disorganized in any way and no signs of her being dragged but we can confirm because of the surgeons comments that she must have been on the ground somewhere for the mud to be "well plastered" on her left side and matted in her hair left side.

Presumably the mud caked on to her coat when she was pulled/pushed/fell during her interaction with BS Man. I agree very odd you are spot on when you say where is the mud on the ground of the cobbled yard and if she just stumbled or fell the the ground during the BS man incident it wouldn't have stuck to her like that would it?

Do we know the make up of the footway or the street. Were they just dirt or were they cobbled. It is a bit of a mystery. But wats new!

Great thread

NW

Dragging Stride through mud would have left a trail. There was no trail, so as you say, the mud caking occurred when she was pulled/pushed/fell. This occurred a few yards inside the line of gates, where it was very dark. Schwartz witnessed the pull/push/fall. Ergo, Schwartz was inside the line of the gates when this occurred. It's fairly obvious who the murderer was.

No doubt this too close for comfort account was recognized, so that by the time the press statement was made, the incident had been toned down to a mere quarrel, that Schwartz hears more than he sees.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's always niggled me that he saw none of the other witnesses, and none of them saw him.
Yet both stories have that ring of truth. It's almost like two parallel events occurred at the same place and time, which of course is ridiculous.
If, both scenario's are true, and it cannot be a 'wrong day' argument, or wrong time, then it must be 'wrong place'?
It must be one or the other - unless we go for that old escape clause of accuse someone of lying, which I will resist at all costs.
So, if we look into each story deep enough, do we see where the two stories do not actually match.
I think we do.

So, the problem you're trying to solve, is why no one saw Schwartz. I thought the answer was; Blah 30 seconds blah Fanny Mortimer blah toilet blah blah.

No?