The Stride Murder

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Karsten

Here is a map, I put coloured dots to identify people & locations.

Green - Mortimer, 36 Berner St.
Red - Stride, Dutfields Yard.
White - Couple on corner by Board School.
Blue - Marshall, 64 Berner St.

Purple - Brown, 35 Fairclough (block 3393).
Pale Blue - Beehive PH, 36 Fairclough (block 3393).
Orange - Spooner, 26 Fairclough (block 3403).

Amazing map!


So based on this map, Brown says he saw Stride and the man standing by the board school...which is opposite number 44 where Packers sold the grapes.


I.e Packer said that after hes old the grapes, the couple went and stood across the road from him, almost opposite....which IS the boarding school!


And so Brown and Packers sightings match.


The question is...Schwartz was walking south, meaning that the man who he says he saw attack Stride was also walking south...BUT the murder site is north of the corner where Brown had seen the couple and opposite from Packer, who claims he last saw them cross back over the road to him and go towards standing outside the club and then out of his line of sight.

And so the movement works like this...

Stride and suspect buy grapes from Packer, south of the murder site, and go across the road to stand outside the boarding school. They stand in the rain for a while and then Brown sees them at 12.45am outside the board school opposite Packer. He hears Stride say "NO, not tonight, some other night" but as Brown walks back from the chandler shop, the couple then cross back across the road towards the club, with Packer still there. Stride and the man are outside the club north of the murder site but Stride stays as the man walks north away from her. But he changes his mind and turns to walk back to Stride who has walked south from the club just a few yards to the location where she is murdered. The man walks towards Stride having been rejected by her moments before, just as Schwartz walks south down the street and sees him approach her. The man seen by Brown and Packer is therefore the man seen attacking Stride and therefore likely her real killer.

The more I look into this, the more it feels like a man being rejected after having spent time and money on grapes, choosing to lash out and attack Stride because despite his efforts, she told him no.

This really doesn't feel like an authentic JTR case.

If the man seen by Packer, Brown and Schwartz is the same man who attacked her, then i doubt he was the ripper because he had spent too much time with his victim and been seen by multiple people.

More the actions of an angry rejected client than a calculated serial killer.


RD



That may suggest that the Stride and the man walked

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

At one stage (I haven't been able to relocate it) I found an article that stated that historically a hard felt deer stalker was actually used on country estate for deer stalking, and was in the Fedora style. The soft cloth version was used for convenience in the city.

IMO Stride was murdered either by BSMan as part of a domestic (not a JtR murder) or she was murdered by Pipeman (JtR), and I rate it as 50/50. With regard to your question in a previous post, the comparison between Stride and McKenzie is a matter of timing. If the Stride murder had been 8 months later, and/or McKenzie 8 months earlier, they may have changed positions in the C5 list.

Best regards, George

Hi George.

You asked what happened to Parcel-man, as I suggested elsewhere (not sure which thread), Bricklayers arms-man is Parcel-man, and he was the only one left with Stride after Schwartz walked away, BS-man followed and Parcel-man took Stride's life within minutes of the scuffle.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi George.

You asked what happened to Parcel-man, as I suggested elsewhere (not sure which thread), Bricklayers arms-man is Parcel-man, and he was the only one left with Stride after Schwartz walked away, BS-man followed and Parcel-man took Stride's life within minutes of the scuffle.

Would it not be difficult for a man carrying a parcel to commit this murder when two hands would have been needed to carry out this murder?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi George.

You asked what happened to Parcel-man, as I suggested elsewhere (not sure which thread), Bricklayers arms-man is Parcel-man, and he was the only one left with Stride after Schwartz walked away, BS-man followed and Parcel-man took Stride's life within minutes of the scuffle.

May i suggest that the man who left the Bricklayer's arms with Stride left her before she entered Berner Street? She was sighted with him around 2 hours prior to her murder at a different location.

Stride wasn't witnessed kissing anyone in Berner Street (If Marshall saw another couple which seems very likely when you look at the amazing map shared by Wickerman) and so because she WAS kissing and hugging a man in another location BUT wasn't in Berner Street, then perhaps the man who was seen with her outside the Bricklayers Arms was her last intimate client for the night.
Having done the deed, they parted ways and Stride walked into Berner Street.

The man with the parcel didn't have on a BILLYCOCK hat for a start.

I think HATS are very important when looking to identify individual suspects.


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Would it not be difficult for a man carrying a parcel to commit this murder when two hands would have been needed to carry out this murder?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I agree...the only thing the killer would be carrying would be concealed knives; perhaps a long pointed sharp knife for deep stabs and cuts and a shorted clasp knife for stabs to the face etc...

Unless the parcel contained the knives themselves and he presented the parcel as a gift to his victims before attacking them.

I think anyone carrying a parcel has limitations as a killer with limited time.


RD

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten

Here is a map, I put coloured dots to identify people & locations.

Green - Mortimer, 36 Berner St.
Red - Stride, Dutfields Yard.
White - Couple on corner by Board School.
Blue - Marshall, 64 Berner St.

Purple - Brown, 35 Fairclough (block 3393).
Pale Blue - Beehive PH, 36 Fairclough (block 3393).
Orange - Spooner, 26 Fairclough (block 3403).

Thanks Jon! It's very good of you.

The (Fire Insurance) map section of "Fairclough Street" I have ends with the "h"... The numbering of Fairclough Street in the Cooper Map is not complete... so thanks again...

It could be either, but the girl spoke to an Evening News reporter, she told him where she was.



Yes.



yes, you've lost me with that last bit.
I don't know if you're asking me, or telling me good night.

"Telling you good night"!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So, what happened to Parcel-man?
At 12:35 Stride was with him, and she had been with a man since at least 11:00pm, so I'm thinking Bricklayers Arms-man is also Parcel-man.
So, Parcel-man has bought her some grapes, fully intending to spend some time with her, yet 10 mins later she is alone, or is she?
Why would she stand by herself in a gateway?

Good question.

Although Schwartz did not see a second man, his attention was fixed on the man walking ahead of him who has just assaulted a woman standing in the gateway.
If Stride was facing the road it could be argued she was by herself, but if her back was to the road, she will have been facing Parcel-man, who is stood in the shadows, out of sight of Schwartz.

Interestingly, in the police statement written by Swanson, Schwartz says "the man turned her around", the full statements reads:

"The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly."

When anyone talks about this assault they often leave out the "turned her around", as it makes little sense if she is facing the road, which everyone assumes she is. Why would BS-man turn her around so her back is facing him, then throw her down?
It makes no sense.
Stride was not facing the road, BS-man had to turn her around because she was stood facing someone she was with.

Aren't you forgetting something, Jon?...

Israel Schwartz ... on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Did the man stop and speak to a woman with her back to him, or did she turn around first?

This I believe must be Parcel-man, she was talking to him in the shadows.

The shadows? https://casebook.org/press_reports/e...20dead.
Why would Stride be standing in the gateway, facing the yard, talking to a man standing in intense darkness?

Schwartz was walking behind BS-man, and saw him grab at a woman who had her back to him. BS-man saw what was going on, recognised her as soliciting so pulled her away then turned her around, he may even have growled something like, "we don't want your sort around here", and she stumbled to her knees whimpering "oh" to the man she was with, who stayed out of sight not coming to her aid.
This is why she cried out, but not loudly, because someone was with her. If she had been alone it would be normal for a woman to scream for help, loudly. In her case she didn't think she needed to because she thought Parcel-man would come to her aid, but he didn't.
Schwartz saw no-one else just the scuffle, and BS-man also walked on.

Does the 'we' in "we don't want your sort around here", refer to the club members, thus implying that the BS-man was himself a member?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

James Brown testified:
I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.
The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.


In the press we read of a couple on the corner.

London Evening News, Oct 1, 1888.

THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.

"When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct. 1888.

Mrs Mortimer said:
"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

This couple is who I think James Brown was referring to, not Stride.

I agree with your conclusion, but consideration of the timing according to the 'young girl', tells us something interesting.

If the alarm of murder was raised just after 1am, and the couple had been at their position for about 20 minutes, then that 20 minutes begins in the 12:40 to 12:45 range. Now is it not the case that Brown only sees the couple on his return home from the chandler's shop, thus suggesting the couple arrived while he was in the shop? That would mean Brown arrived at the shop no later than about 12:40, and possibly earlier if his supper required some sort of preparation. So, Brown could not have left home significantly later than 12:35, if he did indeed see the sweethearts.

On the other hand, if Brown's timing was more or less correct, then who did he actually see? If he did indeed see the sweethearts, then the young woman was a bit out in her timing. If the young woman was more or less correct, how did the sweethearts miss the screams and the two men running?

The problem is that this last question - why did the couple seemingly not witness any of the so-called Schwartz incident - doesn't get much easier to answer if Brown's timing is used. He sees a couple at the Berner/Fairclough corner at 12:45. If it is the sweethearts, the Schwartz incident must be over. If it is Stride and an unknown man, the Schwartz incident must be over. That pushes the Schwartz incident - if it occurred at all - back to around 12:40, or even earlier. So what do we know about what was going on at around 12:40?

MA, Oct 2:

Morris Eagle, 4, New-road, Commercial-road, said-I am a traveler and a member of the Socialist club. I was at the club on Saturday night, and did not leave till after the discussion. I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

I suggest Morris Eagle had broad shoulders.

[Wickerman]

Would it not be difficult for a man carrying a parcel to commit this murder when two hands would have been needed to carry out this murder?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I imagine he would let go of it, that is to be expected.
So he picked up the parcel as he left.
If he left it at the scene, the parcel would identify him.
As it is he think the man who came by and assaulted Stride will get the blame - which he apparently did.

[Wickerman]

May i suggest that the man who left the Bricklayer's arms with Stride left her before she entered Berner Street? She was sighted with him around 2 hours prior to her murder at a different location.

Stride wasn't witnessed kissing anyone in Berner Street (If Marshall saw another couple which seems very likely when you look at the amazing map shared by Wickerman) and so because she WAS kissing and hugging a man in another location BUT wasn't in Berner Street, then perhaps the man who was seen with her outside the Bricklayers Arms was her last intimate client for the night.
Having done the deed, they parted ways and Stride walked into Berner Street.

The man with the parcel didn't have on a BILLYCOCK hat for a start.

I think HATS are very important when looking to identify individual suspects.

RD

Hello RD.

I'm interested in all scenario's, my own is just a working hypothesis, it can change any time.

The man with Stride at the Bricklayers Arms wore a Billycock hat, yes it was "rather tall" according to witness Best.
Just to touch on the Kelly murder, Mrs Kennedy said the man who stalked her wore a Billycock hat, her best friend Sarah Lewis described the mans hat as "a round one, rather high, a stiff felt hat".
She is describing a Billycock hat, but the high version, like what this man is wearing.



Parcel-man, according to the police release wore a "hard felt hat", which is what a Billycock hat is, like a Bowler, made from felt but molded hard.

Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance.

This was Parcel-man, with a high, Billycock hat.

The complication for me is not Parcel-man's hat, but the type of hat Packer describes for his suspect.
In a police report he says "kind of Yankee hat", in the press statement he says "Wideawake", and in another "a soft felt hat", so this must be explained.

The only reason I can think of is that Packer did not see what hat the man wore while he was serving him, the street-window where he served customers was too low down, he would be looking at the man's chest.
As the couple stood on the road opposite the shop, Packer, possibly short-sighted, and through wet glass (raining?), could not get a clear view.
I have little doubt it is the same man due to all the other circumstance; time, grapes/parcel, overall appearance, age, etc.

[Wickerman]

Aren't you forgetting something, Jon?...

Israel Schwartz ... on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Did the man stop and speak to a woman with her back to him, or did she turn around first?

Yes, that is what I suggest.
Stride was standing talking to Parcel-man, with her back to the street.
BS-man staggers past and over hears something he objects to.
Schwartz saw the man speak to Stride.
Perhaps he complained - "we don't want your sort around here".
People do say "we" when they are talking to another person who does not live in the area.
I don't know if he was a club member - possibly?

The shadows? https://casebook.org/press_reports/e...20dead.
Why would Stride be standing in the gateway, facing the yard, talking to a man standing in intense darkness?

Doesn't that help the argument?
I thought you might be showing me a report that said the entrance to the yard was bathed in light from the street.
I think the Star said the entrance was light enough, but then it was dark until the houses opposite cast a bit of light at the club wall. So for perhaps 20 or so feet it was sufficiently dark to hide anyone, even the body was in the shadows.
I'll try find the report.

[Wickerman]

Here we go, it wasn't the Star, it might have been, but I found the report in the Times that describes the portion of the yard near the gates that was sufficiently dark to provide cover for an assailant.

"The scene of the first crime is a narrow court in Berners-street,....
At the entrance to the court are a pair of large wooden gates, in one of which is a small wicket for use when the gates are closed. At the hour when the murderer accomplished his purpose these gates were open; indeed, according to the testimony of those living near, the entrance to the court is seldom closed. For a distance of 18ft. or 20ft. from the street there is a dead wall on each side of the court, the effect of which is to enshroud the intervening space in absolute darkness after sunset. Further back some light is thrown into the court from the windows of a workmen's club, which occupies the whole length of the court on the right, and from a number of cottages occupied mainly by tailors and cigarette makers on the left. At the time when the murder was committed, however, the lights in all of the dwelling-houses in question had been extinguished, while such illumination as came from the club, being from the upper story, would fall on the cottages opposite, and would only serve to intensify the gloom of the rest of the court. From the position in which the body was found it is believed that the moment the murderer had got his victim in the dark shadow near the entrance to the court he threw her to the ground,..."
Times, 1 Oct. 1888.

[Lewis C]

Hi Jon,

At one stage (I haven't been able to relocate it) I found an article that stated that historically a hard felt deer stalker was actually used on country estate for deer stalking, and was in the Fedora style. The soft cloth version was used for convenience in the city.

IMO Stride was murdered either by BSMan as part of a domestic (not a JtR murder) or she was murdered by Pipeman (JtR), and I rate it as 50/50. With regard to your question in a previous post, the comparison between Stride and McKenzie is a matter of timing. If the Stride murder had been 8 months later, and/or McKenzie 8 months earlier, they may have changed positions in the C5 list.

Best regards, George

Hi George,

Regarding the bolded, I would add, "especially if the McKenzie murder had occurred about 50 minutes prior to another Ripper murder, and within easy walking distance of it". For me, that's an important aspect of the timing issue.

In another thread, you mentioned the possibility of Aaron Kosminski killing Stride but not committing any of the other Whitechapel murders. Steve Blomer mentioned that Martin Fido had written that that was a definite possibility. You might be interested to know that there's another writer who has endorsed that idea, in this case, one who thinks that Tumblety was the Ripper:

https://casebook.org/dissertations/tumb-art.html

[GBinOz]

I agree with your conclusion, but consideration of the timing according to the 'young girl', tells us something interesting.

If the alarm of murder was raised just after 1am, and the couple had been at their position for about 20 minutes, then that 20 minutes begins in the 12:40 to 12:45 range. Now is it not the case that Brown only sees the couple on his return home from the chandler's shop, thus suggesting the couple arrived while he was in the shop? That would mean Brown arrived at the shop no later than about 12:40, and possibly earlier if his supper required some sort of preparation. So, Brown could not have left home significantly later than 12:35, if he did indeed see the sweethearts.

On the other hand, if Brown's timing was more or less correct, then who did he actually see? If he did indeed see the sweethearts, then the young woman was a bit out in her timing. If the young woman was more or less correct, how did the sweethearts miss the screams and the two men running?

The problem is that this last question - why did the couple seemingly not witness any of the so-called Schwartz incident - doesn't get much easier to answer if Brown's timing is used. He sees a couple at the Berner/Fairclough corner at 12:45. If it is the sweethearts, the Schwartz incident must be over. If it is Stride and an unknown man, the Schwartz incident must be over. That pushes the Schwartz incident - if it occurred at all - back to around 12:40, or even earlier. So what do we know about what was going on at around 12:40?

MA, Oct 2:

Morris Eagle, 4, New-road, Commercial-road, said-I am a traveler and a member of the Socialist club. I was at the club on Saturday night, and did not leave till after the discussion. I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

I suggest Morris Eagle had broad shoulders.

Good to see you back NBFN. Nice analysis.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hello RD.

I'm interested in all scenario's, my own is just a working hypothesis, it can change any time.
Well said Jon. I have the same disclaimer.

The man with Stride at the Bricklayers Arms wore a Billycock hat, yes it was "rather tall" according to witness Best.
Just to touch on the Kelly murder, Mrs Kennedy said the man who stalked her wore a Billycock hat, her best friend Sarah Lewis described the mans hat as "a round one, rather high, a stiff felt hat".
She is describing a Billycock hat, but the high version, like what this man is wearing.



Parcel-man, according to the police release wore a "hard felt hat", which is what a Billycock hat is, like a Bowler, made from felt but molded hard.

Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance.

This was Parcel-man, with a high, Billycock hat.

Looking at his shoes in that photo, I would imagine he would also have had an "awkward gait".

Cheers, George