Four little words

[Tom_Wescott]

If the Ripper didn't urinate on her for lack of time, surely he wouldn't waste both time and gin on her? If he did, he clearly was not an Englishman!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. thanks for the dew info, Ginger.

[Wickerman]

So what of the morning dew hypothesis?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

"I saw some water, which seemed to me as if it had been thrown at her."
Echo, 12th.

"She looked as if she had been sprinkled with water or something."
Daily News, 13th.

"You spoke of some liquid having been thrown over her. Did you notice any water or anything? -I could not tell what it was."
Morning Advertiser, 13th.

Morning Dew tends to spread itself evenly across a surface as it is the result of the difference between the temperature of a surface, and the ambient temperature of the air.
Whatever James Kent saw it does not appear to have been something evenly spread across her body.

If it was Dew, then the body must have been in-situ for some time, supporting the suggestion by Dr Phillips.
Although Kent appears to describe a liquid inconsistently spread across her (as if it had been thrown?). Does he mean in patches?

[curious4]

Bladder

I suppose we could be back to urine from her own bladder?

C4

[Wickerman]

If her skin or clothing had gotten wet, it was through some other agency than the formation of dew.

I wouldn't discount the possibility that the killer had not rinsed his hands at the tap in the yard, though I understand the police(?) claimed to have checked for blood beneath the tap.

James Kent claimed that her apron was laid, or lifted up, over her disarranged clothes. If the apron was greasy then water may have beaded on it rather than be absorbed into it?

Interestingly, then Kent claims to fetch a piece of canvass to throw over her.
"... I got a piece of canvass from the shop to throw over the body,.."

Then Insp. Chandler claimed to do the same:
"...I obtained some sacking to cover it before the arrival of the surgeon,.."

Perhaps it was Chandler who directed Kent to find something to cover the body?
Regardless, the water is now obscured & absorbed by the canvass by the time Dr Phillips arrives.

[Ginger]

Had she been sprinkled with gin, I'd think that someone would have remarked upon the smell, even moreso than with urine, a smell that might reasonably be expected from a mutilated body. While I never before considered the matter, it is interesting to me in light of this discussion how much interest is shown at Annie's inquest into the matter of whether she'd had any liquor to drink that night. The coroner stresses the matter in his summing-up, and opines (as did Dr. Philips) that she'd had none that night.

If she did have gin on her clothes, is it possible that the fact was being withheld by the authorities? Could that line of questioning at the inquest have been intended to establish that Annie could not have spilled gin on her dress herself, as she had none? I don't know enough about the working relationship between the police and the coroner to speculate intelligently.

I can see the obvious appeal behind the idea of Jack enticing her into the backyard with the promise of a nip from his flask, then, once the deed was done, throwing the gin contemptuously over her ("There's your gin!"), but I really don't believe it. That requires the Ripper to see her as a person, an individual, even if an individual for whom he felt scathing contempt. I just don't think he felt that much connection with his victims. As I've said, though, that's just opinion, without much to back it up.

[Tom_Wescott]

I suppose we could be back to urine from her own bladder?

C4

That or the Ripper's own urine. In fact, that's more likely than Chapman's urine unless you're suggesting he had time to play in her urine but not to dispose of his own.

Or water. But if water, we have to ask ourselves why it was over the body and why he didn't use the tap. Did he perhaps bring his own water for that purpose? Had he washed at the tap the water wouldn't have been all over Chapman.

Thanks Wick for the posts about the canvass. I too read it as the Inspector instructing Kent to do that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

It's a distasteful thought, but someone emptying a chamber pot from the first floor window directly above the body could have been responsible.

[Robert]

That's a funny place to keep gin.

[Wickerman]

It'd be safe, nobody would touch it

[Tom_Wescott]

It's a distasteful thought, but someone emptying a chamber pot from the first floor window directly above the body could have been responsible.

LOL. That idea's so wacky it's probably the actual truth of what happened. Great suggestion, Bridewell.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ginger]

It's a distasteful thought, but someone emptying a chamber pot from the first floor window directly above the body could have been responsible.

Not the sort of thing to make one popular with the downstairs neighbors, I would think.

[Fisherman]

I doubt that it could have been dew. Dew condenses on objects that are cooler than the atmosphere. The low temperature that night was around 50F, per http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html. If the relative humidity for the day is recorded anywhere, I've yet to discover it. However, both the Friday and the Saturday are described as 'fine', 'bright' and 'clear'. To my mind, that argues for a reasonable relative humidity, perhaps around 50% to 65%, which accords well with the chart of London's aggregate historical humidity at http://weatherspark.com/averages/287...United-Kingdom. Calculating the dew point for those values (there's a handy slider-type tool at http://www.dpcalc.org/) shows that dew wouldn't have formed on Annie's body unless she reached a temperature between 39F and 32F, which just wasn't going to happen under the conditions.

If her skin or clothing had gotten wet, it was through some other agency than the formation of dew.

Many thanks for this, Ginger - most helpful! Can I ask you, when you write "dew wouldn't have formed on Annie's body unless she reached a temperature between 39F and 32F, which just wasn't going to happen under the conditions", which conditions are you speaking of? The Long/Cadosch scenario? The Phillips scenario? Or the no matter who scenario, since the surface temperature of the body would not drop low enough for dew to form in either case?
I get a feeling that the last option is what applies. Is that correct?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I found this when searching the net:

"After the circulation ceases and the hypothalamus stops functioning, internal body temperature drops by approximately 1 degree Celsius or 1,8 degree Fahrenheit per hour until it reaches room temperature. As the body cools, skin loses its natural elasticity. If a higher fever was present at death, the changes in body temperature are more pronounced and the person may appear to "sweat" after death. Body cooling may also take several more hours."

Itīs from the Oxford Textbook of Palliative Nursing, chapter 32, "Planning for the actual death" by Patricia Berry and Julie Griffie, 2010.

Was that what Kent saw signs of - sweating after death? We know that Chapman was not at all well, and of course she could have had a fever. If this was the liquid on her body, then we should note that a much slower cooling would have accompanied the process, pointing very much to Chapman having been dead for a long time as Phillips examined her.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Ginger]

Can I ask you, when you write "dew wouldn't have formed on Annie's body unless she reached a temperature between 39F and 32F, which just wasn't going to happen under the conditions", which conditions are you speaking of?

You're quite welcome. I meant under those weather conditions - her body will just not get cold enough to form dew, no matter the time of the murder.

[Fisherman]

Thanks for that, Ginger - then dew it wasnīt.

The best,
Fisherman