Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Damaso Marte]

As for the definition of "best":

I view Lawende as the "best" eyewitness because I think he (and Long) are most likely to have seen the actual killer. This is almost entirely because of TIMING. Lawende's eyewitness testimony is indeed fuzzy, he didn't get a good look at them, he didn't think he could ID the man, etc. But given where he saw the couple, and what time it was, it's highly likely they were Eddowes and her killer.

If you define "best" as most useful in a court of law, or most useful to the police...yes, I can definitely see Lawende dropping out of the top ranks.

[Damaso Marte]

Oops, I forgot to mention Long.

Given the time of the sighting in relation to the probable time of death, it is likely that the man she saw with Chapman was the killer.

In fact, of the witnesses named in the poll, the only two who I would say with some confidence did not see the killer are Smith and Hutchinson. Smith because Schwartz's evidence of a different individual arriving on the scene ten minutes later and assaulting a solo Stride indicates that the man with the parcel had gone elsewhere. And Hutchinson because his three-day-late evidence was apparently ditched shortly after it emerged, and is extremely suspect for various reasons, as others have pointed out.

All the best,
Ben

Why does it follow that Schwartz must be right and Smith must be inaccurate? If those two are in conflict, it might just as easily be that Schwartz was a fabricator and Smith saw a viable suspect.

[Wickerman]

Eye witnesses can be very unreliable and in some cases purely fraudulent attention seekers.I personally don't take any of the so called reported sightings of our killer seriously when you consider the light and distances and time spent observing our killer.

Quite correct, the police know today, and likely knew then, that eye witnesses can be notoriously unreliable (Pearly Poll?). But this is why it is important to have verification.
Like I pointed out elswhere, Cox could have been extremely unreliable as her sighting of Blotchy was not verified by any means. Yet Maxwell is deemed unreliable but her sighting was confirmed by Morris Lewis.
So there is no clear cut guide to this dilemma. Each circumstance must be judged on its own merit.

If you feel you cannot accept anything from any witness, how can you develop an interest in the case with little to use as your guide?

[harry]

From the information given,and the one observation of Brown,Long and Lawende,I be lieve all three saw victim and killer together,and that it was JTR,and he was known to victims.

[Ben]

Mrs longs timings conflict with other witnesses at 5.15am the gentleman in the garden next to where Chapman was found heard a thud which is quite possibly the murder taking place so her sighting at 5.30am can't be our killer.

I don't think that quite follows, Pink.

Neither witness was wearing a watch, although Liz Long was basing her estimate on the clock chime and Albert Cadosch never claimed he was doing similarly with his estimate. There's no reason to think that Cadosch couldn't have been out by a few minutes, or potentially longer.

Regards,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

Would explain a lot also was not a reward offerd after Kelly's murder granting immunity from prosecution for any accomplice that will keep our conspiracy theorist happy.

What does that mean?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[pinkmoon]

Oops, I forgot to mention Long.

Given the time of the sighting in relation to the probable time of death, it is likely that the man she saw with Chapman was the killer.

In fact, of the witnesses named in the poll, the only two who I would say with some confidence did not see the killer are Smith and Hutchinson. Smith because Schwartz's evidence of a different individual arriving on the scene ten minutes later and assaulting a solo Stride indicates that the man with the parcel had gone elsewhere. And Hutchinson because his three-day-late evidence was apparently ditched shortly after it emerged, and is extremely suspect for various reasons, as others have pointed out.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,Mrs longs timings conflict with other witnesses at 5.15am the gentleman in the garden next to where Chapman was found heard a thud which is quite possibly the murder taking place so her sighting at 5.30am can't be our killer.

[Tom_Wescott]

Regarding Hutch and Smith, I do not recall Hutch saying his man carried a paper parcel. If I'm mistaken, please provide the source for this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Oops, I forgot to mention Long.

Given the time of the sighting in relation to the probable time of death, it is likely that the man she saw with Chapman was the killer.

In fact, of the witnesses named in the poll, the only two who I would say with some confidence did not see the killer are Smith and Hutchinson. Smith because Schwartz's evidence of a different individual arriving on the scene ten minutes later and assaulting a solo Stride indicates that the man with the parcel had gone elsewhere. And Hutchinson because his three-day-late evidence was apparently ditched shortly after it emerged, and is extremely suspect for various reasons, as others have pointed out.

All the best,
Ben

[pinkmoon]

I assume you mean 'best' as intended in the title of the thread?
Reliability is certainly a factor, though even two contesting statements can be classed as both coming from reliable sources.
A witness who gives detail that can be, or has been, verified by external sources is naturally superior to one who's detail cannot, or was not able to, be verified.

For instance, PC Smith should be classed as a reliable source, sadly the victim could quite easily have met up with another man in the intervening 25 minutes after Smith saw Stride with 'Parcel man'.
We have no reason to suggest that either Lawende, Schwartz or Mrs Long were unreliable, but equally there is no firm indication that Lawende or Long saw the correct couple. Schwartz appears to have seen Stride but not necessarily with her killer.

Hutchinson is certainly deemed reliable and part of his claim is consistent with what we know from another witness. He just may have embellished the look of the man because he has seen this same man elsewhere in other attire, and was just being over helpful.
Sadly Sarah Lewis did not know Kelly well enough to recognise her walking up the passage, but we have no cause to suggest she was not a reliable witness.

So the most reliable witnesses in the list offered, in my opinion, were PC Smith, Sarah Lewis, and Geo. Hutchinson. Lawende, Schwartz & Mrs Long were no less reliable but may not have seen who they thought they saw.

Eye witnesses can be very unreliable and in some cases purely fraudulent attention seekers.I personally don't take any of the so called reported sightings of our killer seriously when you consider the light and distances and time spent observing our killer.

[Wickerman]

How do you define ' Best ' Wickerman?.
Is it a question of reliability ?.

I assume you mean 'best' as intended in the title of the thread?
Reliability is certainly a factor, though even two contesting statements can be classed as both coming from reliable sources.
A witness who gives detail that can be, or has been, verified by external sources is naturally superior to one who's detail cannot, or was not able to, be verified.

For instance, PC Smith should be classed as a reliable source, sadly the victim could quite easily have met up with another man in the intervening 25 minutes after Smith saw Stride with 'Parcel man'.
We have no reason to suggest that either Lawende, Schwartz or Mrs Long were unreliable, but equally there is no firm indication that Lawende or Long saw the correct couple. Schwartz appears to have seen Stride but not necessarily with her killer.

Hutchinson is certainly deemed reliable and part of his claim is consistent with what we know from another witness. He just may have embellished the look of the man because he has seen this same man elsewhere in other attire, and was just being over helpful.
Sadly Sarah Lewis did not know Kelly well enough to recognise her walking up the passage, but we have no cause to suggest she was not a reliable witness.

So the most reliable witnesses in the list offered, in my opinion, were PC Smith, Sarah Lewis, and Geo. Hutchinson. Lawende, Schwartz & Mrs Long were no less reliable but may not have seen who they thought they saw.

[pinkmoon]

There's a difference between seeing something you know is wrong (interrupting the killer, coming across Chapman's body before it was officially discovered, etc.) and not reporting it, and seeing something without realizing you saw something.

Dozens of people saw the Ripper on his way home from each murder. I'm willing to bet that most of them had no idea there was a uterus under that coat.

A law abiding person might however how many of those were about at the time of the murders .

[Damaso Marte]

Hi Tom,over the years our killer has almost taken on superhuman powers to explain why he wasn't seen.The most logical explanation was that he was seen but it was never reported not to far fetched when you consider the area.

There's a difference between seeing something you know is wrong (interrupting the killer, coming across Chapman's body before it was officially discovered, etc.) and not reporting it, and seeing something without realizing you saw something.

Dozens of people saw the Ripper on his way home from each murder. I'm willing to bet that most of them had no idea there was a uterus under that coat.

[Damaso Marte]

Even though the man seen by Hutchinson was also described as carrying one?

The Hutchinson sighting is of course extremely suspect for reasons independent of the parcel.

[pinkmoon]

Even though the man seen by Hutchinson was also described as carrying one?

I think our killer would keep his knife in his pocket out of sight but ready for immediate use rather than carry it in a parcel.