Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[pinkmoon]

I think the best witness will have to be the person or persons who never came forward to the police.Someone must have seen something but as they were probley up to no good themselves they never came forward.

[Ben]

Hi Haskins,

I never thought I'd say this on a witness-related thread, but it's Fisherman's post that most closely mirrors my own thoughts on the issue. Lawende is perhaps the best of the bunch (and it appears, from various sources, that the police may have agreed), but if it wasn't for doubts as to Stride's inclusion in the ripper's tally, Schwartz would be an obvious candidate for one of the most likely ripper-spotters (I completely discount the argument that the broad-shouldered attacker was not Stride's killer).

Sarah Lewis's description of the loiterer with the wideawake hat is also a viable candidate for the ripper, in my view. His loitering behaviour is consistent with that of known serial killers who discreetly monitor their intended victims' homes before entering them. It could also be observed that her description, while vague, corresponds in an admittedly broad sense to other eyewitness descriptions of the supposed killer.

It has been pointed out, correctly, that Lewis saw three men, and they were as follows:

1) The aforementioned man with the wideawake, hanging around as though watching and waiting for someone to emerge from Miller's Court.

2) A man talking with a woman outside Ringers' pub on Commercial Street, near Spitalfields market, and who may or may not have been the same person who accosted her and a friend the previous Wednesday.

3) A young man, definitely not Astrakhan, who walked down Dorset Street with a drunk woman, definitely not Kelly, and who certainly didn't walk down Miller's Court passage.

Of these three, 1) is obviously the most suspicious on account of his apparent interest in the court.

[Scott Nelson]

How about the untraced Benjamin Amos Solomon?

[Damaso Marte]

The possibility of the killer spending lots of time, perhaps even hours, with the victims before actually killing them cannot be ruled out, except perhaps for Eddowes.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Is it not a coincidence that the man Maxwell saw talking to Kelly, took place outside the Britannia just a few hours later.?
Was this the same guy?
If so he was certainly Jack the Ripper.
Had she arranged to meet him in the morning, was the no hurry approach by the killer, a ploy to gain the confidence of his victim?
Regards Richard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Damaso, my theories are often repeated, but never equaled. It might seem convincing, but I'm not convinced. It's just something that occurred to me years ago in the course of research and seems plausible. I believe it is the first 'parcel' sighting, but it must be said that Smith's newspaper parcel and Hutch's American cloth bag are nothing like the same thing. I believe what Smith took the parcel to be was a box wrapped in newspaper. That's why I suggest a stack of newspapers wrapped in string and held under the arm at that time of night would appear more like a parcel. After all, the Der Arbeter Fraint would not have appeared like a standard newspaper hawked around the streets by newsboys and immediately identifiable. They would have been hot off the press and unfolded.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Damaso Marte]

Considering the estimated age, the style of dress, and the location of Smith's sighting, I think it likely he saw a member of the club handing out free promo copies of the club's paper, Der Arbeter Fraint. This is one of the ways they drew in newcomers on the weekend. And the dimensions of the paper are spot on to what Smith estimated was the parcel. A stack of unfolded papers wrapped with string would indeed look like a package to the passerby. If I'm correct I have an idea of who the man was, because there was one of the paper's staff working with Krantz in the backyard offices of the time who may have been kept from the police and did not appear at the inquest, but his name escapes me at the moment.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yup. I've seen either you or Lynn Cates post this theory before, and I found it convincing.

Is this the first instance of the "killer was carrying a parcel" meme that shows up, e.g., in Hutchinson's supposed sighting?

[Wickerman]

Just a quick insouciant poll.

Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper, in your view?

Elizabeth Long aka Darrell - Saw man c. 5 ft 4, wearing deerstalker and dark clothing, prior to Annie Chapman's murder.

William Smith, City PC - Saw a man 5 ft 7, aged about 28, wearing a deerstalker and dark clothing, prior to Catherine Eddowe's murder.

Israel Schwartz - Saw a man 5 ft 5 with a moustache, broad build, aged about 30, wearing a black cap and dark clothing, prior to Elizabeth Stride's murder.

Joseph Lawrende - Saw a man of "middling" height, fair moustache, medium build, about 30, wearing a deerstalker and dark clothing with the look of a sailor, before Catherine Eddowe's

Sarah Lewis - saw a not tall, stout man wearing a wideawake hat before Mary Kelly's murder.

George Hutchinson - Saw a man 5 ft 6, with a slight moustache, aged about 34 -35, with a dark felt hat and dark clothing before the Mary Kelly murder.

Someone else - please post details.

Ok, you have listed six witnesses.

The least likely, and to my mind the one witness you list who did NOT see the killer, is George Hutchinson - the remaining five very well may have seen him.

I doubt if Schwartz saw the killer - this was just an altercation.
PC Smith saw his suspect about 25 minutes before the murder.
Joseph Lawende was not at all sure and he was not able to firmly identify the victim.
Mrs Long just may have seen the killer but still not certain.

Lastly, Sarah Lewis saw three men that night - I suspect one of them WAS the killer.
1 - Lewis saw a man talking to a woman outside the Britannia, the same man who accosted her on the previous Wednesday night.
2 - Lewis then saw a loiterer (Hutchinson?) standing in Dorset St just prior to Kelly's murder.
3 - At the same time, Lewis also witnessed a man walk up the court with a woman, the female "worse for drink" - this must have been Astrachan & Kelly.

IMO neither 2 nor 3 were the killer, but No.1 is the great question mark.

[Tom_Wescott]

[Damaso Marte] I really want to believe in the Smith sighting. I do. It would be extremely convenient for those of us who believe that Stride was a Ripper victim. But it's a tad early and it makes no sense why the killer would be carrying a parcel.[/quote]

Considering the estimated age, the style of dress, and the location of Smith's sighting, I think it likely he saw a member of the club handing out free promo copies of the club's paper, Der Arbeter Fraint. This is one of the ways they drew in newcomers on the weekend. And the dimensions of the paper are spot on to what Smith estimated was the parcel. A stack of unfolded papers wrapped with string would indeed look like a package to the passerby. If I'm correct I have an idea of who the man was, because there was one of the paper's staff working with Krantz in the backyard offices of the time who may have been kept from the police and did not appear at the inquest, but his name escapes me at the moment.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Haskins]

It is remarkable then. It either shows that many men in the East End were similar, or that many people saw the killer...going by just your shortened version of descriptions.

Mike

Mike my shortened descriptions were taken from the Eddlestone encyclopaedia summary, except that the errors pointed out by Hunter were my own bolt-ons. It is remarkable how similar they are though.

[Errata]

I bet any number of cops saw him. He was the one in the local pubs buying them beer and asking about the case.

[The Good Michael]

3. Whoever it is that saw Blotchy Face (embarrassingly, I forget who this was)

I really want to believe in the Smith sighting. I do. It would be extremely convenient for those of us who believe that Stride was a Ripper victim. But it's a tad early and it makes no sense why the killer would be carrying a parcel.

i think it was Cox. Parcels may have been kind of normal.

Mike

[Damaso Marte]

As far as witnesses I do find credible:

1. Lawende

(substantial gap)

2. Long

(slight gap)

3. Whoever it is that saw Blotchy Face (embarrassingly, I forget who this was)

I really want to believe in the Smith sighting. I do. It would be extremely convenient for those of us who believe that Stride was a Ripper victim. But it's a tad early and it makes no sense why the killer would be carrying a parcel.

[The Good Michael]

Many of us here don't believe Schwartz at all. My view is that if Schwartz is a legitimate witness, then Stride was not a Ripper victim.

Why is that? Is it because it appears to be a tandem killing? I see a confused witness who may not have understood exactly what was going on and was induced to give some sort of statement regardless. His story is a bit too convoluted to me to be some sort of cover-up for the Club. I don't think any conspirators would have chosen such a story or such a witness.

Cheers,

mike

[Damaso Marte]

Many of us here don't believe Schwartz at all. My view is that if Schwartz is a legitimate witness, then Stride was not a Ripper victim.