Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Abby Normal]

Clerks and sailors. Clerks and sailors. Bah.

It's the peaked cap folks.

Marshall, Schwartz and Lawendes all describe a man with a peak cap.

My money is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.
Right? c'mon folks this isn't rocket science.

[harry]

The best witness,if my belief is anythimg to go by,is either Pipeman,or BS.One can possibly understand the reluctance of BS to come forward,even if innocent,after Schwartz evidence became known,but how to prove innocence?Pipeman on the other hand,if innocent, had nothing to fear.Maybe what he was hiding,was more than a casual acquaintance with Stride.Perhaps her"Some other time'was an indication that her knowledge of the man she was seenwith(Pipeman?)made another meeting quite probable.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jon,

Swanson most assuredly got "appearance of a sailor" from Lawende - that much is factually established.

Lawende obviously saw someone different from the "clerkly" man observed in Berner Street by Marshall and Smith (assuming they both saw the same man), but I see far fewer problems with Schwartz and Lawende potentially seeing the same person.

Best regards,
Ben

I would agree with that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

And Swanson noted that too, Ben. That's why he inserted Lawende's description into his HO report on the Stride murder.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

Swanson most assuredly got "appearance of a sailor" from Lawende - that much is factually established.

Lawende obviously saw someone different from the "clerkly" man observed in Berner Street by Marshall and Smith (assuming they both saw the same man), but I see far fewer problems with Schwartz and Lawende potentially seeing the same person.

Best regards,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

It was as important as if he'd had a 'clerkly appearance', as that would have meant something back then. Look at the clothing items that Lawende describes for the man. Nothing particular 'sailor' about it, but it fit with how sailors dressed: low class but employed. Almost certainly it was the neckwear that made Lawende think 'sailor'. Take that off and you might have 'clerk'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Appearance of a sailor would fit probably half the men of the lodging house class, almost none of whom were sailors.

In that case Tom, it would not carry any great relevance, it would hardly be deemed important by the police.

[Boggles]

i'll take your sailor suspect and raise you one. From the Rose Mylett murder young girl named Neos Green...

(btw a lot of sailors around that night it seems, see Charles Ptolomy)

[Tom_Wescott]

Appearance of a sailor would fit probably half the men of the lodging house class, almost none of whom were sailors. it's not like they wore white uniforms with funny little hats. It's just the best way Lawende could answer the question that was always posed of witnesses at that time - 'What would you guess his profession to be?' It's like when someone answers a 'clerk', the odds are the man really isn't a clerk, he simply doesn't look like he does physical labor. Schwartz may not have had the familiarity with gentile London types and professions to guess at a sailor. It's just possible that had Lawende been in Berner Street, he might have thought BS man resembled a sailor. Probably not, but it's worth considering.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Yes he did, Jon.

"Appearance of a sailor" was an extract from Donald Swanson's report, dated 19th October. The police-fed newspaper, the Police Gazette, used the exact same phrase. There can be little doubt, therefore, that Lawende described the man as having such an appearance.

You're missing my point Ben, I know where 'we' first read it, what I question is where did Swanson first get it from, it was not from Lawende, unless we choose to believe that Lawende saw a different man than was described in Berner St.

[Ben]

Abby - I very much agree.

(With both your posts!)

Lawende never said the man looked like a sailor

Yes he did, Jon.

"Appearance of a sailor" was an extract from Donald Swanson's report, dated 19th October. The police-fed newspaper, the Police Gazette, used the exact same phrase. There can be little doubt, therefore, that Lawende described the man as having such an appearance.

Schwartz didn't specify a sailor-like appearance, but then such a style of dress would have stood out considerably less in Berner Street, so close to the docks, where dockers and sailors were two a penny in comparison to the more affluent City streets. The "clerkly" man was on the scene before BS and Pipeman, and was clearly neither of those, in my view. At any rate, he's far less suspicious a "person of interest" for the Berner Street crime than sailor boy is for Mitre Square.

So if Lawende was about to say this, then he was about to describe a different man as the killer of Eddowes.

If Lawende was about to say what?

Sorry, don't quite get it.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

....

If you look at the two suspects we know Lawende was apparently used in ID attempts of (Sadler and Grainger) the reason is obvious and was the one thing the police wanted to keep close to their chests - "appearance of a sailor."

I have to wonder where this 'obvious reason' first surfaced.

Lawende never said the man looked like a sailor, and it did not come from either Levy or Harris.

Even if the police believed the Berner St. killer was the same as the Mitre Sq. killer, the man described by Schwartz (BS-man) was not said to look like a sailor. The man seen by PC Smith did not look like a sailor, and Wm. Marshall said his suspect wore a peaked cap like a sailor might wear - yet the man did not look like a sailor, he looked like a Clerk.

I'm not aware of anything written by police that might suggest they were withholding this detail, the suggestion they might have withheld "appearance of a sailor." came from the press, not police.
It could be argued that Lawende might have been about to give this detail away at the Inquest, before he was interrupted by Mr Crawford, and prevented from divulging any further information.
Yes, it 'could' be said, however, the Berner St. killer looked like a Clerk, not a sailor.

So if Lawende was about to say this, then he was about to describe a different man as the killer of Eddowes.

[Abby Normal]

seriouly though. I think out of all the supects, that blotchy has the best chance of being the ripper, therefor Cox was most likely to see the ripper.

I also think that schwartz, marshall and lawende probably saw the ripper-the suspect i call peaked cap man, the night of the double event.

If blotchy was not the ripper, then sarah lewis probably saw the ripper in Mr. Waity Watchy, AKA as wide awake man, AKA hutch.

smith and long might have seen the ripper.

[Abby Normal]

Hutch saw the ripper...

Whenever he looked into a mirror

[Damaso Marte]

I believe that its very possible that the person who killed Polly and Annie, the man who was the inspiration for the Ripper nickname on the letter dated the 27th, didnt kill anyone else in the Canonical Five.

In which case, since no witnesses saw those 2 women just before their murder in the company of someone....(Cadosche only heard something)...I would say that its probable no-one saw the person who was nicknamed The Ripper.

Some of you people think Mrs Fiddymont saw him, no?