Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[curious4]

Blood clots

The blood clots were on the front lower part of the hand and were transferred there by Edward Johnston, who first loosened her collar and felt the neck for a pulse, then picked up the wrist. The blood was not noticed by anyone, such as Edward Spooner, prior to Johnston's arrival, but were noticed after Johnston came into contact with the body.

Stride's hand was clenched, so in the darkness of the yard, the 'oblong clots' could have appeared as something she was gripping in her hand, such as grapes.

What is fact is that Matthew Packer did not sell grapes to Liz Stride and she did not consume any grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom W,

I quote (from Jack the Ripper Sourcebook) Dr Phillips: "The right arm was over the belly. The back of the hand and wrist had on it clotted blood", (inquest testimony) and further on, "Coroner: "Have you formed any opinion how the right hand of the deceased was covered in blood?" Witness: "No; that is a mystery."

I know that the transference theory has been put forward as an explanation, but a) can clots be transferred in this way? and b) would enough blood have been transferred in this way to form clots?

Best wishes,
C4

[Wickerman]

Your guesswork is as good as anyone's Tom.

[Tom_Wescott]

The blood clots were on the front lower part of the hand and were transferred there by Edward Johnston, who first loosened her collar and felt the neck for a pulse, then picked up the wrist. The blood was not noticed by anyone, such as Edward Spooner, prior to Johnston's arrival, but were noticed after Johnston came into contact with the body.

Stride's hand was clenched, so in the darkness of the yard, the 'oblong clots' could have appeared as something she was gripping in her hand, such as grapes.

What is fact is that Matthew Packer did not sell grapes to Liz Stride and she did not consume any grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Clenching of the hands is a sign of strangulation - ...

Interestingly, in a press interview, from Diemschutz, we read:

"...In one hand she had some grapes and in the other some sweets. She was grasping them tightly."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18881001.html

Who knows!

[Wickerman]

Hi Gwyneth.

Hello Jon,

Yes, you could be right about the blood transfer, sounds logical. What I was imagining/considering was what a crowd of people round the body, at perhaps a distance, could have thought they were seeing. "Is that grapes in her hand?", sort of thing. Sweets AND grapes, "poor dear, just out enjoying herself" Rumours fly round and then we have Packer getting his fifteen minutes of fame. Not committing myself on Packer either way, I hasten to add.

Best wishes,
C4

I've spent many hours trying to find out what these cachous (alt. sweetmeats), looked like in the late 19th century.
I'm inclined to think they were not as small as those 'imps' we often talk about as the doctors were able to see these cachous in the dark and in the mud. Those 'imps' were not much larger than the head of a match, not likely to be noticeable at night in the dark & wet mud.

However, some cachous/sweetmeats were dried, fruit or berries, coated in sugar. I have had to wonder if these reports of 'grapes' were nothing more than the cachous we already know about.
Therefore, I suspect, she held the packet of cachous in her left hand, but a few loose in her right hand (seen by Diemschutz & Kozebrodski, thought to be grapes).

When PC Lamb felt for her pulse he dislodged the loose cachous which fell into the gutter, as mentioned by Dr Phillips.

The existence of 'grapes' has long been a source of controversy, but for two independent witnesses to see them suggests to me that there must be a simple solution.

The only contribution I see from Packer is that he claimed to see Stride with a man about 12:30, at the same time & location as PC Smith.

[curious4]

Clots or blood clots?

Hello Jon,

Yes, you could be right about the blood transfer, sounds logical. What I was imagining/considering was what a crowd of people round the body, at perhaps a distance, could have thought they were seeing. "Is that grapes in her hand?", sort of thing. Sweets AND grapes, "poor dear, just out enjoying herself" Rumours fly round and then we have Packer getting his fifteen minutes of fame. Not committing myself on Packer either way, I hasten to add.

Best wishes,
C4

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

Whether blood clots on the back of a hand could be mistaken for grapes is, of course, a matter of opinion. I think they could, in the general shock, horror and general confusion. Reddish black, round?

Do you think the witness might wonder how she came to balance a bunch of grapes on the back of her hand while it was lying at a sloping angle across her breast?


Constable Lamb did admit to grasping her hand, the nearest one to him is this same right hand. He felt for a pulse, but he also told the court that some of the blood on the ground was liquid, but elsewhere it had congealed.
Now, in the dark blood looks like oil, and at night you cannot tell if blood is liquid or congealed unless you touch it.

So my conjecture is that PC Lamb felt her face (as he says), then saw the blood around her neck, touched it to see if it was still liquid, then felt her pulse, thereby transferring the clotted blood to her wrist.

Clenching of the hands is a sign of strangulation - he didn't have to kill his victims, just render them unconscious for the time it took to cut their throats.

Entirely agree, the victims were not killed at this point just unconscious at best.

[Wickerman]

Kate Eddowes had abrasions on the left side of her face.

Wasn't the left side of her head resting on on those rough rocks against the house wall?

[curious4]

Favourite autopsy site

http://forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/ligature-strangulation

Thought I would give the address of my favourite autopsy site. Please forgive the extremely gruesome illustrations - somehow worse in colour!

As with all such sources of information nothing is written in stone and it would take someone with many years of experience and who has come across exceptions to many of the rules to judge exactly what happened at a crime scene.

Best wishes and good hunting for the Whitechapel murderer,
C4

[curious4]

Pushed or shoved?

Hello Damaso,

The bruises on Liz' shoulders point more to her being pushed to the ground - perhaps the translation should have been pushed or forced, rather than thrown to the ground.

As I said, we don't know how the killer subdued his victims. A punch to the midriff would probably take their breath away and make it hard to cry out and any bruising would be masked by the "ripping". Perhaps Jack refined his techniques as he went on. If Tabram is to be counted as a victim, she was strangled for longer, her face being so swollen, it was said to be almost unrecognisable, so perhaps Jack realised later that it wasn't necessary to fully strangle his victims, or at least not for so long. The abrasion on Kate's face has always suggested to me that she was punched (speculation warning).

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Hello Lynn,

Exactly! Any kind of choking would produce clenched hands - and, as I mentioned in my reply to Jon - he didn't need to kill the victims, merely render them unconscious, reason being they were likely to protest loudly when they saw him come at them with the knife if they were conscious.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Hello Jon,

Whether blood clots on the back of a hand could be mistaken for grapes is, of course, a matter of opinion. I think they could, in the general shock, horror and general confusion. Reddish black, round?

Clenching of the hands is a sign of strangulation - he didn't have to kill his victims, just render them unconscious for the time it took to cut their throats.

I have wondered (speculation warning) whether, as Liz bled comparitively slowly, she started to come round and put her hand up to her throat. The doctors couldn't explain how the blood got there.

Best wishes,
C4

[Hunter]

Kate Eddowes had abrasions on the left side of her face.

[lynn cates]

yep

Hello Damaso.

"If Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes were thrown to the ground, where are the bruises and the ear-witness account of screams? I don't think this is consistent with the forensics or the quietness of the killings."

Quite. (Glad to see an interest in forensics.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

seizing

Hello Gwyneth. But would not a seizing of the scarf produce the SAME clenching of the hands?

Cheers.
LC