Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Wickerman]

If we are dealing with just one guy, then I'd say Lawende is the best bet. Or rather, maybe some combination of that crew who came out onto that street that night. The whole Stride scenario is so mixed up that it is almost completely useless.

The drawback with Lawende is not only his own reservations about his sighting, but that both Scotland Yard and the City Police writing on internal reports acknowledged their own reservations about his ability as a good witness.
Lawende never saw Eddowes face, did not identify the corpse, but only claimed the clothes shown to him were similar to those worn by the woman in Duke St.

It is very possible that the couple seen by Lawende & Co. were not Eddowes & her killer.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

So right you are.

The drawback with Lawende is not only his own reservations about his sighting, but that both Scotland Yard and the City Police writing on internal reports acknowledged their own reservations about his ability as a good witness.
Lawende never saw Eddowes face, did not identify the corpse, but only claimed the clothes shown to him were similar to those worn by the woman in Duke St.

It is very possible that the couple seen by Lawende & Co. were not Eddowes & her killer.

Agreed, but given the timing and proximity of the sighting it is certainly compelling to study.

[J6123]

Maybe they all saw the killer or maybe none of them did. It is that frustrating.

Interesting that George Hutchinson has more votes than Sarah Lewis. I've always suspected Hutchinson was an attention seeker who dreamed up his suspect, from imagination or past real events or a fusion of both, then injected himself into the investigation with it. But maybe he was telling the truth, and he did see Mary Kelly pick up a well-dressed man, and he just allowed his imagination to fill in lots of gaps.

Personally i think there is a decent chance that Schwartz and Sarah Lewis saw the killer.

[Damaso Marte]

Hi Lynn,

Another reason why I don't think Stride was a JTR victim was, of course, there was no evidence of strangulation on her, except maybe she was pulled back by her scarf. Also, the knife wound to her neck is considerably different from the others.

And, to get back on topic of the discussion of the forum, I really don't think JTR would have murdered someone with all these witnesses poking around (Schwartz, Pipe-man, not to mention the singing gentlemen in the club next door). When you look at it objectively, the Stride murder looks like adomestic squabble gone horribly wrong.

Then again, Schwartz's description of the assailant strongly resembles the man who was last seen with Kate Eddowes. So, there is that one factor to also take into consideration. However, Schwartz's description is not unique to one specific individual; I am sure there were many men of similar appearance poking around the East End at the time.

What Schwartz describes is so unlike what we believe any of the other Ripper killings to have been like that, in my view, if Schwartz was telling the truth than Stride must be ruled out as a Ripper victim.

[curious4]

Unlike Jack?

Hello Damaso,

I think what Schwartz describes is exactly what Jack did in the other killings. Surprise attack, victim thrown to the ground, arrogantly indifferent to the risk of being caught. To me Schwartz is by far the best eyewitness and to my mind he was the recipient of the so-called "threatening letter". There is a reference in the letter to "your wife". Schwarz was married, I don't know whether Lavende was at the time.

Best wishes,

C4

[curious4]

Lawende

Too lazy to look it up before, but yes, Lawende definitely married, and judging by the list of children, Mrs L. was no doubt happy for him to spend the wee small hours at his club!

However as a witness he seems to slide down the list. When giving his statement the police are quoted as saying "You will easily recognise him, then?" and his reply was "Oh no! I only had a short look at him!"

Best wishes,
C4

P.S. Thanks to Chris for the information on Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

I think it can be fairly said that of all the witnesses only 2 provide stories in which a Ripper murder might have been taking place at that time....Israel with claimed eye witness testimony, and in the case of sound evidence, Cadosch.

Since its far from clear who killed Liz Stride, and its very probable that the man that killed Polly was the Ripper, who also killed Annie, then you have Albert as the most probable witness to have heard the Ripper.

I dont believe anyone actually saw him just before the act or during.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Since Schwartz didn't describe Stride at all and only identifies her after seeing her body, I'm not sold he even saw her being attacked.

Lawende didn't see Eddowes and apparently couldn't identify the suspect.

Yet one of the two is most probable as being used in identity parades. Which one and why? Whichever one would have to be the best witness.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

I think it can be fairly said that of all the witnesses only 2 provide stories in which a Ripper murder might have been taking place at that time....Israel with claimed eye witness testimony, and in the case of sound evidence, Cadosch.

Since its far from clear who killed Liz Stride, and its very probable that the man that killed Polly was the Ripper, who also killed Annie, then you have Albert as the most probable witness to have heard the Ripper.

I dont believe anyone actually saw him just before the act or during.

Cheers

Good point Micheal regarding Cadosch. Perhaps the best witness who didn't see something! I'll add to that list...Mortimer. By not seeing something then maybe a witness who apparently did see something would not be as valuable as some currently think which would make the original question a little easier to answer!

Cheers
DRoy

[Sam Flynn]

Since its far from clear who killed Liz Stride, and its very probable that the man that killed Polly was the Ripper, who also killed Annie, then you have Albert as the most probable witness to have heard the Ripper.

Or, at least, he heard the side-effects of what the Ripper was doing. I believe Cadosch only heard Annie's voice, if such it was, and even then only a syllable.

[Damaso Marte]

I think what Schwartz describes is exactly what Jack did in the other killings. Surprise attack, victim thrown to the ground, arrogantly indifferent to the risk of being caught.

BS man was allegedly throwing a woman to the ground, beating her up, indifferent to the amount of sound he was creating, in front of at least two people.

To me, this cannot possibly be the same man who lowered Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes to the ground AFTER incapacitating them (leaving no evidence with the lattermost about how she was subdued!), who killed Nichols under an insomniac's window without waking her, who killed Eddowes near a night watchmen without rousing him, who left no meaningful evidence of any kind and, to our knowledge, was never seen in the act of killing or even attacking anyone else.

Jack the Ripper is an inherently quiet killer. I think BS man cannot be the same as the Ripper. I choose to believe that BS man did not exist and that Schwartz is not a credible witness, a view I'm far from alone in holding.

[curious4]

Jack's way

Hello Damaso,

As no-one ever saw Jack kill we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife. I should think that the latter would have been easier. Schwarz never says he saw a woman being beaten - just that he saw her thrown down in the street or in the passage, depending on which report you read.

As to many people believing that Schwarz is unreliable, I believe this is a fairly recent concept. The police at the time took him very seriously. A good many children believe in Santa but that doesn't make him real.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

High-pitched Jack?

Or, at least, he heard the side-effects of what the Ripper was doing. I believe Cadosch only heard Annie's voice, if such it was, and even then only a syllable.

Hello Sam,

Of course we are just presuming that the voice was Annie's - Jack could have had a high-pitched voice, many men have, and he must have been in a state of exitement at the time.

Ok, not very likely, but it is never good to take anything for granted.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Gwyneth.

"we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife."

Indeed. And, given the absence of signs of strangulation in Liz and Kate's cases, we cannot be sure HOW they were subdued.

"As to many people believing that Schwarz is unreliable, I believe this is a fairly recent concept. The police at the time took him very seriously."

But perhaps not at Leman st?

"A good many children believe in Santa but that doesn't make him real."

Precisely my sentiments about the ripper.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Strangled

Hello Lynn,

Seem to remember having this argument with you some time ago, even producing testimony from my favourite autopsy site. Both Liz and Kate had clenched hands, a sign of strangulation, or so I am told.

Happy New Year, anyway, or Hogmanay in your case. May the New Year bring you (and all Ripperologists) health, wealth and happiness.

Regards,

C4/Gwyneth