Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Cogidubnus]

No sour grapes

Hi (belatedly) Tom

P.S. Regarding Schwartz, I believe he was briefly a suspect himself, so that might be why he wasn't at the inquest. In any event, the police clearly wanted to keep him 'under wraps' so that might be reason enough.

As you know I was initially very sceptical of Schwartz, but have lately developed a distinctly soft spot for him. This is, therefore, manna to my ears. It doesn't mean I believe totally in his testimony, but I do have time for him...he COULD be the real thing...there is nothing, as far as I can see, in the evidence from other sources (both medical and witness-based) which conclusively and definitively excludes him...something discussed ad infinitum on a recent thread.

If he really saw what he said he saw, then I believe it's possible the police would have regarded him as their best witness...but of course it's equally possible that Lawende & Co, maybe on police advice, deliberately understated the extent of their own evidence...

Frustrating isn't it?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

Yes, and merchant marines are military in a support and spying fashion.

Erm sorry no...in UK parlance the "Merchant Marine" refers solely to the (large and in 1888 hugely predominant) body of merchant mariners...ie sailors who weren't employed either directly or indirectly by the Grey Funnel Line

All the best

Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Is Cris Malone still going on about his merchant marine theory? Man, those theorists just never give us a break, do they.

Hi Cog. I almost regret the part I played in so many people concluding Schwartz was a liar based on the evidence that he was possibly associated with the club. But i'm sure you'll agree, all evidence has to be put to the test. Like you, I can never be 100% certain about Schwartz, but his evidence does not conflict with our best witness (Fanny Mortimer), nor does anything about it not ring true. It seems, believe it or not, that he was probably telling the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Just a quick insouciant poll.

Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper, in your view?

Elizabeth Long aka Darrell - Saw man c. 5 ft 4, wearing deerstalker and dark clothing, prior to Annie Chapman's murder.

William Smith, City PC - Saw a man 5 ft 7, aged about 28, wearing a deerstalker and dark clothing, prior to Catherine Eddowe's murder.

Israel Schwartz - Saw a man 5 ft 5 with a moustache, broad build, aged about 30, wearing a black cap and dark clothing, prior to Elizabeth Stride's murder.

Joseph Lawrende - Saw a man of "middling" height, fair moustache, medium build, about 30, wearing a deerstalker and dark clothing with the look of a sailor, before Catherine Eddowe's

Sarah Lewis - saw a not tall, stout man wearing a wideawake hat before Mary Kelly's murder.

George Hutchinson - Saw a man 5 ft 6, with a slight moustache, aged about 34 -35, with a dark felt hat and dark clothing before the Mary Kelly murder.

Someone else - please post details.

PC Smith.

[Hunter]

Is Cris Malone still going on about his merchant marine theory? Man, those theorists just never give us a break, do they.

LOL... Thanks for catching that, Tom. Theorists can be rather redundant at times, can't they?

[JTRSickert]

I know I am in the minority about this, but I personally do not believe that Liz Stride was a JTR victim. For several reasons:

1. it's the only crime to take place before midnight (it seems too early for him)
2. There are too many witnesses in the immediate area
3. Since the Socialist Jewish club was occupied next to the murder scene, I don't think Stride chose the spot to conduct business since many people were going in and out; I think she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time
4. No mutilation
5. It's the only murder to take place south of Commercial Road

Therefore, even though Israel Schwartz is the best witness to this crime, since I don't think he saw JTR, it makes it irrelevant. So, since I do believe Eddowes was a JTR victim, I think Joseph Lawende is the best witness. He admitted he only had a passing notice but he was able to provide a description of the man and he identified Eddowes by the clothes she was wearing.

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello JTRS. Before midnight?

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

If you consider Stride a Ripper victim, then you have to vote Schwartz. And that's what I did.

[Paddy]

Schwartz

My votes on Schwartz.

As for the murder before midnight, its possible Liz was murdered out of anger.
If it was Jack receiving a refusal from Liz earlier (No not tonight, some other night) he may have been annoyed believing she was working that night and had lied to him.
Police seemed convinced that Elizabeth Stride was a JTR victim, they must have had there reasons.

Pat.............................

[curious4]

Would explain a lot also was not a reward offerd after Kelly's murder granting immunity from prosecution for any accomplice that will keep our conspiracy theorist happy.

Hello Pink,

A pardon was offered to anyone involved in the murders, but not actually participating in them, for example someone helping with the getaway, or covering the killer's tracks. (at least this is my interpretation, based on Jack being "posh" and a servant helping him, who risked losing his/her livelihood).

Best wishes,

C4

[JTRSickert]

Hello JTRS. Before midnight?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Sorry, I meant to say shortly after midnight

[lynn cates]

schedule

Hello JTRS. Thanks.

12.45 perhaps?

Of course, the come back will be, "Was 'Jack' on a schedule?"

Cheers.
LC

[JTRSickert]

Hello JTRS. Thanks.

12.45 perhaps?

Of course, the come back will be, "Was 'Jack' on a schedule?"

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Another reason why I don't think Stride was a JTR victim was, of course, there was no evidence of strangulation on her, except maybe she was pulled back by her scarf. Also, the knife wound to her neck is considerably different from the others.

And, to get back on topic of the discussion of the forum, I really don't think JTR would have murdered someone with all these witnesses poking around (Schwartz, Pipe-man, not to mention the singing gentlemen in the club next door). When you look at it objectively, the Stride murder looks like adomestic squabble gone horribly wrong.

Then again, Schwartz's description of the assailant strongly resembles the man who was last seen with Kate Eddowes. So, there is that one factor to also take into consideration. However, Schwartz's description is not unique to one specific individual; I am sure there were many men of similar appearance poking around the East End at the time.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

One Ripper, and just one.

If we are dealing with just one guy, then I'd say Lawende is the best bet. Or rather, maybe some combination of that crew who came out onto that street that night. The whole Stride scenario is so mixed up that it is almost completely useless.

[John Wheat]

Of course we don't know if any of the witnesses even saw Jack any way. And frankly witnesses have been shown time and time again to get things wrong.