Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[Chava]

...and from that thought, a question for the vocal music experts in the audience:

If someone is singing quietly--or even humming perhaps--through a closed door, would a casual listener be able to tell if the voice is male or female? Is it possible that Blotchy Face killed her very quickly and then kept on humming that song while he went about his work to make people think she was still alive?

[Fisherman]

Chava asks:

"If someone is singing quietly--or even humming perhaps--through a closed door, would a casual listener be able to tell if the voice is male or female?"

That would depend a lot more on the vocal material at hand than on the door, IŽd say. If Blotchy had a deep base voice and Mary a high soprano, no door would change that. Also, if we were to shove David Beckham and Zarah Leander in that room, no door would disguise the fact that David Beckham would be the one sounding like a girl.

The best,
Fisherman

[perrymason]

One more thing about Cox's evidence: she says Kelly started singing when she went into her room and sang the whole time Cox was in her room. She was still singing when Cox returned later. Now I'm assuming that Blotchy Face was there as a trick. So I can't quite compute that with Kelly singing her lungs out. At some point, surely, she'd have to shut up and get down to business unless she was offering a unique service somewhat akin to what a singing waiter does...

But apparently she didn't shut up once. I do find that strange!

Hi Chava,

I think assuming that Blotchy Man was a client is contrary to what little we do know of their arrival, and Marys behavior once inside. It would also be the first man, the only man, that we know of that she takes into her room....other than her lovers.

Blotchy Man has a tankard or mug of something in his hand, I think that suggests he likely left the pub he was at with it, and since Mary is quite inebriated herself, not a giant leap to imagine they were drinking together. I think by the evidence, including the singing...which was off and on, not constant for over an hour, it would appear Mr Blotchy may have escorted Mary home, and been invited in for a visit.

She has been on her own in that room for a few days now, and maybe just wanted some company. Since Barnett had been by I believe daily to give her money, excluding Thursday the 8th, it would appear he is still trying to give her enough to live on so she doesn't have to resort to "street work".

I think far too often its has been suggested that all street whores worked every night regardless of the circumstances, and that they didnt have any normal needs like the rest of the population...companionship, laughter, friends, nights out, partying it up a bit...Why cant a 26 year old street whore also be just a young woman at times?

Its worth noting also that the only "Canonical" that didnt have a nights doss to her name, but didnt need it to sleep indoors in a bed,... was Mary Jane. Polly was looking for hers, kept earning and spending it, Annie went out even though ill...cause she had to get money for a bed, Liz earned her doss the afternoon before she goes out to get killed, but doesnt pay for her bed, and Kate had no money and no idea where John Kelly was, so she needed her doss for a bed.

Mary Jane did not have the "drivers", or the need, to go out and solicit... as the prior, middle aged victims, did.

Best regards.

ps..Sam on my comment on Annie, considering the time, the speed, and the lack of peripheral damage and/or superfluous cutting....at least to any great extent, its impossible to rule out that Annie's killer killed her for her abdominal organs,.... using only what is known about that crime. I would add that cannot be said as strongly for Polly and Kate though.

[Dan Norder]

I think assuming that Blotchy Man was a client is contrary to what little we do know of their arrival, and Marys behavior once inside.

You've got to be kidding me. A prostitute without money is out drinking at a bar and brings a strange man home... That's not only not contrary to the idea that Blotchy-Faced Man is a client, that's a dead on exact match of how a prostitute with a room found clients and serviced them.

I mean, I know you go around all the time trying to twist evidence to try to support the bizarre conclusions you already jumped to, but how can even you believe this kind of nonsense? What you are arguing here would mean that no amount of evidence short of the man shouting out that he bought the services of a whore and handing her money while engaging in sex in front of a crowd could possibly indicate that she was working that night, and even there you'd probably try to claim that it was not really prostitution but performance art or whatever other weird rationalization you could come up with.

[paul emmett]

If someone is singing quietly--or even humming perhaps--through a closed door, would a casual listener be able to tell if the voice is male or female? Is it possible that Blotchy Face killed her very quickly and then kept on humming that song while he went about his work to make people think she was still alive?

Hello, Chava. I agree with you that the singing is STRANGE. But as you may recall, a while back it was dismissed by almost all as sporadic and irrelevant. Now THE SCOTSMAN Inquest transcript shows us that it was continuous from at least 11:45-12:00, and, like you, I feel this suggests that it was so for a lot longer. I know how drunks are, etc etc, BUT I still think the singing is serving another purpose besides just melancholic dead Mother entertainment.

Cover up? Perhaps. It's like telling all that we are(or I am) in here.

[celee]

Working on the hypothesis that Mary was sleeping in her room after 1:20, there are three possiblities:
1. The man with the carrroty moustache is the ripper
2. The ripper knocks and Mary opens the door for him. They are acquainted.
3. The ripper somehow knows that Mary is in her room and enters

Hi,

I believe that it is possible that Mary went to sleep for a while and she got up and went back out. It is not odd to me that she would not be as loud going back out as she was entering with blotchy. The fun was over and she may have been comming off a high. I believe the cry of murder came from Kelly and I do not believe the Ripper broke into her home to kill her or just happend to stop by. I feel she brought him to her room.

Your friend, Brad

[Ben]

I believe the cry of murder came from Kelly and I do not believe the Ripper broke into her home to kill her or just happend to stop by. I feel she brought him to her room.

Can't argue with a hunch, Brad, but as it stands there's no more evidence for the "brought him to her room" theory than there is for the intruder premise. She may not have been as loud as she was with Blotchy, but I'd personally expect something that at least hinted at her earlier effervesence rather than lights-off silence. Why would the "fun" have been over with the depature of Blotchy?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

She may not have been as loud as she was with Blotchy, but I'd personally expect something that at least hinted at her earlier effervesence rather than lights-off silence. Why would the "fun" have been over with the depature of Blotchy?

...possibly because her next visitor didn't allow her too much time to effervesce - plus, singing before midnight is one thing, whereas bursting into song after 2 or 3 AM is quite another.

[celee]

Can't argue with a hunch, Brad, but as it stands there's no more evidence for the "brought him to her room" theory than there is for the intruder premise. She may not have been as loud as she was with Blotchy, but I'd personally expect something that at least hinted at her earlier effervesence rather than lights-off silence. Why would the "fun" have been over with the depature of Blotchy?

Hey Ben,

Simply, she may have been comming down from a previous high. She may not have felt like being loud.

I confess I used to drink alot and many times I was happy as a clam when I nodded off. However when I awoke usually after just a few hours or even minutes, I was alot less happy.

Your friend, Brad

[Ben]

Hi Gareth and Brad,

I guess I have trouble envisaging Kelly as a concerned neighbour. If she was giving all she had into "Only a Violet.." at 1.00am in a small brick court, she was unlikely to become overly concerned about a minor cacophany an hour later. It's not so much the "loud" factor disappearing that I quibble with, but rather the mutation from "loud" into near silence that I find easier, on balence, to attribute to her nodding off.

Regards,
Ben

[celee]

Hi Ben,

We do not know for sure that Kelly was dead quiet anyway when she entered her room for the last time, I believe around 3:15, We do not know who was sleeping or half asleep or Who was paying full attention. It would have been after 3 in the morning when Kelly arrived home for the last time. I doubt that the Ripper lit a huge fire in Kelly's room either.

Your friend, Brad

[perrymason]

You've got to be kidding me. A prostitute without money is out drinking at a bar and brings a strange man home... That's not only not contrary to the idea that Blotchy-Faced Man is a client, that's a dead on exact match of how a prostitute with a room found clients and serviced them.

I mean, I know you go around all the time trying to twist evidence to try to support the bizarre conclusions you already jumped to, but how can even you believe this kind of nonsense? What you are arguing here would mean that no amount of evidence short of the man shouting out that he bought the services of a whore and handing her money while engaging in sex in front of a crowd could possibly indicate that she was working that night, and even there you'd probably try to claim that it was not really prostitution but performance art or whatever other weird rationalization you could come up with.

I would think youd cover your a** before shoving someones comments back down their throat and making insane ones of your own,.. but you didnt, and since you didnt.....you now have 10 minutes to list all the clients we know that Mary Kelly took into her room at 13 Millers Court.

Ill accept ONE.

..and since we dont what Blotchy is doing there other than listening to Mary sing, he isnt available to use.

Barnett didnt like Mary soliciting on the streets, so you can be damned sure he didnt let her bring clients into the room...hes been gone just over a week, and Mary had Maria still with her for a few days. There is only a few days since shes lived there, where she may have brought clients in, and there are no witnesses or proof that that ever occurred. And Joe Barnett or Joe Flemming could have just dropped in at any time...neither was thrilled about her whoring I would guess.

Youve suggested all whores whore all the time before...I suppose you attribute that to some sub-human whore instinct, something that "decent" humans dont have..... because Ive yet to see you talk about one victim as a woman, or human being...their all just whores to you.

Well.....in this case, it seems the "exchange" was vocal, not obviously physical nor financial.....and since there are no records anywhere that suggest Mary Jane Kelly of 13 Millers Court ever brought a client to her room....what are the odds she just happened to start doing so on this particular night? When what we know of her is that she is hammered, apparently fed, and singing in her room.

Youre accusing Mary of activities that we know she didnt do in that room,... and Im talking nonsense.

Best regards.

[Ben]

Hi Brad,

We do not know for sure that Kelly was dead quiet anyway when she entered her room for the last time, I believe around 3:15

There's no evidence that Kelly returned at 3:15am. She may well have done, as there's no evidence that rules it out or otherwise casts doubt on it, but it's a possibility only.

Cheers,
Ben

[celee]

Hi,

Of course you are right Ben, we do not know either way and may never know, Frustrating.

Your friend, Brad

[jason_c]

There is proof that Kelly(a known prostitute) brought drunken strangers home at night.