Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[Chava]

However I suspect the door banging may not have been what it seemed. When the door swung open it hit the chair that Kelly had placed as a nightstand against the bed which was on the right hand wall. Somewhere there is a reference to the Coroner banging the door against this as he took the jury in to view 13 Millers Court. I thought this was in the Pall Mall Gazette report but it isn't. However I'm pretty sure I read it recently... Might be on the 13 Millers Court thread that Stewart Evans put up.

As to McCarthy's motive, could have been anything. However I note that another woman was killed at Millers Court on his watch later on. One murder might be termed an accident. Two smacks of carelessness!

[paul emmett]

Hello, Chava. You are right about the jury group hitting something as they opened the door, and I think that if Cox heard a bang, it might well have been that. But I think that that in itself suggests an urgency on Blotchy's part. And I agree with Celesta that Cox's phrasing suggests that she thought something was amiss.

I didn't know about the second murder being on McCarthy's watch. There was a 1901 pamphlet about Dorsett st. being the worst street in London. This pamphlet talks of a gentleman who owned a lot of property there--Jack Mccarthy. Do you know if this is our John McC? Is it surprising that he is now being called Jack?

[Sam Flynn]

There was more than one more murder "under McCarthy's watch" following Kelly's. We know that McCarthy wasn't the killer in those cases, because the culprits were caught and convicted.

[Cap'n Jack]

I think, Sam, that 'Jack' Carthy was never a killer, but he certainly encouraged very violent acts of thuggery amongst the Irish gangs he seems to have controlled around Dorset Street; and that he used prostitutes and their pimps to supplement his income, especially in Miller's Court, and his 'shop', which was actually a eating house and bar for all the criminal vagrants of the East End.
As I have shown, he had young Irish lads out on the streets, encouraging male punters to come to his lodgings in Dorset Street, with the promise of prostitutes to share their room, and then he set his boys on the male punters and robbed them before they even got in the rooms.
And when things went wrong the toughs hid in his shop, or his lodging house, till the police winkled them out, but through it all one can sense the relationship between 'Carthy and the police.
'Carthy was the police.

[Celesta]

Cap'n Jack posted a thread on this very thing under the title McCarthy's Shop & Lodgings, just a few days ago. In the initial post is a document that mentions a woman luring a man with "a room" and his ending up being robbed. That bit about the room gives one pause.

It doesn't paint John Mc in a good light and that certainly supports some points raised here about his character.

[Chava]

Sam, no one ever found out who murdered Kitty Ronan in Prater's old room in 1909. Someone stuffed a rag in her mouth to quiet her and then cut her throat. She was evidently killed while she was sleeping. The case is described on this board. She'd even been eating fish and chips! Personally I'd like to look at McCarthy for that one as well. He was the landlord then as before.

By the way Paul, 'Jack' and 'John' were pretty much interchangeable. The stuff discovered by Cap'n Jack suggests a very venal man indeed. Runs tarts, organizes thieves. Imagine if someone knew something or tried something on with someone like that. I doubt he'd hesitate to have this 'someone' killed. In fact, given the organization apparent in what's described, it's possible that McCarthy didn't kill Kelly but had her killed by someone or some people else. That might have been the source of the wideawake hatted man Lewis saw. Keeping watch to make sure no one stumbles in on the dirty work. If you've got a serial killer operating in the area, it's horribly easy to kill someone and blame it on him...

Just a thought!

[perrymason]

I think you could find traits of cruelty or at least a cold disposition within a man who owns what are essentially slums. Marys windows remain unfixed, who knows what else the tenants dealt with, maybe Prater's lock isnt functioning and thats why she blockades the door. But hardly the basis for suggesting he is a killer, and particularly this killer, Mary Janes.

Its interesting Chava that your willing to look at McCarthy, on the premise that he wasnt Jack, but intended to leave the crime scene as one Jack would. So your "Canon" is what, 4 victims? Just curious.

I think if one is willing to consider other than The Ripper for the Millers Court murder, the circumstances of her death, and the presence of some wounds most professional opinion would consider acts that potentially reveal aggression or passion...her face,...and the heart perhaps.....we should first rule out lovers before considering landlords. Hutchinson is not a lover that we know of, but Blotchy may be. Or a client. Joe F and Joe B are. Maybe theres a Joe C, or Frank P. A. (Francis Poofter Astrakan )

If McCarthy had a key....it would have been used at 1:30pm on November 9th, rather than forcing the door himself...damaging it...to gain access.

With Mary Kelly, its rarely suggested that her killer did all he did but really only wanted her heart, and more frequently suggested in terms of objectives with the women who lost abdominal organs. Why is that?

My guess is because of the "glut". Hard to imagine what the objective or goal was with all the meaningless actions....stripping one and partially stripping another thigh, her face....emptying her midsection, and placing it about her, under extremities.

For lack of a more delicate phasing at this moment...the killer went to town on Mary. Not looking for anything specific...maybe just browsing,...but Annies killer went to a specific store, straight to what he wanted, and then left the store with his prize. Marys killer was rummaging in the bargain bins....waiting till something struck his fancy. Not surprising its the heart if thats the case...she had little if anything left to extract.

Best regards.

[jason_c]

Oddly enough Chava, Its his recollections of seeing Mary and seeing that room that I felt were among the most honest. I believe he was horrified. Why did he force open a perfectly good door when he knew the latch method? Because he was caught up in the drama, like everyone else in the court that afternoon.
I think McCarthy can be shown to possibly be a Victorian Slum Lord, but I dont think a butcher.

Cheers C.

Perhaps off topic but i agree with this. I learnt recently of a friend of mines who was suspected of taking an overdose. The police were called and the door was forced open by them. Only then was it realised the door had been unlocked all along.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Annies killer went to a specific store, straight to what he wanted

That assertion is highly contentious, but since the subject is not at all relevant to the subject of this thread (viz., how we make sense of three witness statements) I won't elaborate further here.

[Chava]

Yes, Michael, my canon has 4 victims. I believe it's possible that the Ripper killed Kelly, but if he did, he killed her for different, more personal reasons.

To get back to the witness statements. Prater seems to be the pivotal witness here as she says she was standing outside the court between roughly 1.00, when Cox says she was warming her hands at home, and roughly 1.20 when she went in to talk to McCarthy before going to bed at 1.30. By the way, did Spitalfields Church Clock chime throughout the night? Is that how they are certain of the times? Lewis says she knew by that clock, but she could have seen it on her way to Millers Court.

If Prater didn't see Mary, then Mary leaves after 1.20/1.30 am. But she is uncharacteristically quiet when she goes and the same when she returns. I find this hard to believe. Because according to Kudzu, she was 'spree-ish' when he saw her, and was indulging in some teasing and flirting with Mr A as they stood at the entrance of the court and then went up. I can't believe she'd stop this as she went in so that she wouldn't bother the neighbours.

[paul emmett]

Hello, Chava. You are right about the jury group hitting something as they opened the door, and I think that if Cox heard a bang, it might well have been that. But I think that that in itself suggests an urgency on Blotchy's part. And I agree with Celesta that Cox's phrasing suggests that she thought something was amiss.

I know we have gone in different directions since this, but I still wanted to add that when I went back to Cox's statement in THE SCOTSMAN, I found that one of Cox's last comments was, "[MJK] scarcely had time to say goodnight as the man shut the door." It does seem that Cox is suspect.

Chava, I do agree that the quiet would be uncharacteristic here.

[Celesta]

It's hard to say who is suspect. If Prater didn't see Cox, then Cox passed by when Prater was in with Mac, which throws Cox's estimate of the time off, or Prater's. Who does one believe? Or is there information somewhere that has remarks by either woman having seen the other? It was raining, also, which may have made a difference in what Prater might have heard when she entered the stairs.

[Dan Norder]

no one ever found out who murdered Kitty Ronan in Prater's old room in 1909.

Sure we do: Harold Hall.

[perrymason]

I think in very simple terms, the choice of which of the 4 mentioned in this thread are worthy of belief, only 2 witnesses really have any direct relevance to the Investigation of Marys death, Hutch, and Mary Ann. These witnesses both claim to have seen what appears to be the last man seen with Mary Jane Kelly, 2 different men sighted, 2 hours apart.

One witness was interviewed the day Mary was killed, being a court resident herself, and an acquaintance of Marys. She alleges that she passed the room several times between 12:00 and 3am, and that after 1:30, no light was seen or sounds were heard when she passed right past Marys door....and the alcove that held her windows. Her statement does not conflict with any other court resident statements.

The second witness waited almost 4 days before coming in voluntarily to give a statement. It is arguably the most detailed suspect description of these cases. The witness alleges he knew Mary Kelly. He alleges he walked home from Romford that day. He alleges that he was in the area and spoke with Mary earlier in the evening. His statement places him in the position of the loitering man seen by Sarah Lewis. His statement alleges Mary was outside her room after midnight, something which has no other support present other than his word.

We know Mary Ann...she's inner circle, she's been past the dead womans room umpteen times, and knew Mary. We know that. She has no reason to fabricate anything

We know nothing about GH. And we do know if he was Loitering Man, he might have had self serving reasons to own up to it ....if only due to Sarah Lewis's sighting. He has at least one possible reason to lie.

Ill trust the woman from the court...just like the police did starting on November 15th-16th.

Best regards.

[Chava]

Thanks Dan, I didn't know that.

One more thing about Cox's evidence: she says Kelly started singing when she went into her room and sang the whole time Cox was in her room. She was still singing when Cox returned later. Now I'm assuming that Blotchy Face was there as a trick. So I can't quite compute that with Kelly singing her lungs out. At some point, surely, she'd have to shut up and get down to business unless she was offering a unique service somewhat akin to what a singing waiter does...

But apparently she didn't shut up once. I do find that strange!