Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[perrymason]

Hi Chava,

My personal thinking is your "A", but, as I think Ben will agree, "B" is not impossible either.

Best regards.

[Carrotty Nell]

If we discount Hutchinson as a reliable witness which about 75% of us do, and just consider the three supposedly reliable ones, it is interesting that of the three Cox seems to be the one at variance in that she hears no cry in the night. Furthermore she is quite adamant she had not slept all night since her return and reiterates herself on that point so we cannot just assume she might have nodded off without realising it. Lewis and Prater differ in their account of how loud the cry was and what exactly was said, but the near-identical timing of it surely makes it the same cry they both heard. So why did Cox not hear it too?

[QUOTE=Chava;18024]
Cox:
I went in, but could not sleep and did not go to bed. I can't sleep when I owe anything. When the murder was discovered I had not had a wink of sleep. I had no sleep at all that day. There are men who go to work in Spitalfields Market, and who leave early. Once such man lives in the court now. I heard a man go out at 6.15.
By the Coroner - I feel certain that of there had been a cry of "Murder" in the deceased's room after three o'clock in the morning, I should have heard it. There was not the least sign of any noise whatever.

Prater:
The last witness (Mary Ann Cox) could have come down the court and gone out, but I did not see her.

QUOTE]

You almost get the impression that Cox and Prater are deliberately in opposition to each other. Might there have been an axe to grind here which we don't know about?

Something else that I find odd about Cox's statement. Her time of going out is given is 'about 1am'. Her time of return is given as a very precise 3.10a.m. Had she acquired an accurate timepiece sometime in those two hours? 3.10 is of course why she and Hutchinson would not have crossed paths.

Something else to consider is the behaviour of the kitten. Some noise or other disturbed Diddles only minutes before Prater heard the cry. That to me is sound evidence that the killer entered the room from the Court (i.e. wasn't already in the room sleeping with Kelly) either with a key if he was Barnett or via the window, and made enough noise in doing so to be heard by sharp feline ears, but not those of the wakeful Lewis.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Again, you introduce some interesting alternatives which have merit. On balence, I'm inclined to make a tentative identification with Hutchinson and the wideawake man, but it ain't cast in iron.

Hi CN,

Mrs. Cox may not have heard the scream because she occupied a room diagonally opposite from that of Kelly at the far end of the court, whereas Prater and Lewis were berthed above and opposite respectively. More perplexing is Julia Venturney's failure to heed the "murder" cry as she also occupied a room directly facing Kelly. Perhaps she was dozing at that time and missed it, although I've always been intrigued by a quote attributed to her by the Morning Advertiser's to the effect that she heard "a strange sound with the door" during the night which was reportedly quite different to the way Kelly usually opened her door.

Best regards,
Ben

[Celesta]

Although he's not my man, it seems that the logical conclusion here, what might well be too obvious, is Blotchy. The insights presented so far on this thread seem to lead to him. That would certianly explain, for example, where the trick came from: he never left. They have their song and perhaps "dance," MJK goes to sleep and voila. Darkness. It seems to be the least problematized "solution."

This is something I've considered also, Paul, and it is horrible to contemplate that he was playing with her like a cat with a canary. All that singing. Makes me grind my teeth.

[Chava]

McCarthy, people. McCarthy. He's there. He's (probably) got a key. He can wait until she shuts up and settles down...

[perrymason]

McCarthy, people. McCarthy. He's there. He's (probably) got a key. He can wait until she shuts up and settles down...

Oddly enough Chava, Its his recollections of seeing Mary and seeing that room that I felt were among the most honest. I believe he was horrified. Why did he force open a perfectly good door when he knew the latch method? Because he was caught up in the drama, like everyone else in the court that afternoon.

I think McCarthy can be shown to possibly be a Victorian Slum Lord, but I dont think a butcher.

Cheers C.

[Celesta]

I've spent the last hour or so trying to make a chart of what is known of this night. We think we have something to go on, but there's nothing really concrete on Mary after Cox leaves a little after one. Everything stops after Cox leaves. By that I mean, all evidence of Mary's actual existence appears to stop. There are no witnesses to her singing or her coming and going, unless you consider George. It was more stark seeing it in chart form, I guess.

Why is it that Cox leaves a little after 1 am and yet Prater says she's standing at the entrance of the court at about 1 am and sees no one? Was Mary singing loud enough for Liz to hear her? She's there for roughly half an hour, 1 am to 1:30 approximately, and in that time she goes in and visits with McCarthy. Then she goes to her apartment and hears nothing and sees nothing. Apparently a little after 1 am, Mary stops singing and all is quiet. Blotchy must still be in there since no one seems to have seen him leave.

[paul emmett]

Why did he force open a perfectly good door when he knew the latch method? Because he was caught up in the drama, like everyone else in the court that afternoon.

Hi, Michael.

I'd go for this if McCarthy didn't have so long to think about it. They knew the door was "locked" right away. So he had, what, two hours? Wouldn't latch/broken window have crossed his mind at least once?

Hi, Celesta.

One more post ends up at Blotchy. Soon I'll be a believer.

[Celesta]

Hi Paul,

I'm not convinced yet, but it seems the most obvious and the most simple. My little dipsy doodle charts amply show nobody saw or heard a thing from Ms. K after Cox leaves, yet again, some time shortly after 1 am. It doesn't prove anything, of course, just provides a graphic representation. I have a huge block colored in and labeled 'unaccounted for,' except where I posted GH's info with ??? The monkey wrench in the works is that Cox saw Blotchy, and Blotchy knew she saw him.
Best,

Celesta

[IchabodCrane]

Hi, Michael.

I'd go for this if McCarthy didn't have so long to think about it. They knew the door was "locked" right away. So he had, what, two hours? Wouldn't latch/broken window have crossed his mind at least once?

Hi Paul,

naturally McCarthy didn't want the police to know that he knew how to open the door via the broken window, which is how he would have entered her room if he was the killer. It makes less sound than using the key,

Kind regards
IchabodCrane

[Chava]

There's the thing, Michael. I don't necessarily buy all that, and I'd love to know why he chose that morning out of all the mornings to tell Bowyer to go next door and try and get some money out of Kelly. After all, she'd racked up a considerable debt and he seemed to be ok with it. 'She was down on her luck' was his excuse for that.

I first glommed onto McCarthy for Kelly 20 years ago. I haven't changed my mind since. Although Blotchy is an excellent candidate as well. If I thought Kelly was a Ripper killing I'd go for Blotchy.

However it occurs to me (if Kelly was a Ripper victim) that there may have been two people in on it. Lewis does see someone looking up the court. That someone may have been some kind of lookout, and that may be why the Ripper always managed to get away in time...

[paul emmett]

I'm not convinced yet, but it[Blotchy] seems the most obvious and the most simple.


The monkey wrench in the works is that Cox saw Blotchy, and Blotchy knew she saw him.
Best,

Celesta

Hi, Celesta.

I'm not convinced either, and I certianly don't want to be known as the Blotchy guy, BUT I think you are right: it is the most direct "solution." Even your monkey wrench brings some guilt with it, because when Blotchy saw Cox see him, he banged the door--I take it that was in haste to get inside.

Hi, Ichabod.

I would agree with you 100% if I felt McCarthy was the killer. But if he's just an innocent landlord, why not save his door?

Hi, Chava.

Speaking of McC being the killer, if he was, WHY send Boyer for the rent? Why get even tangentally involved in the discovery of the body? Also, do we know that McC didn't send Boyer for the rent, say, every day?

[perrymason]

There's the thing, Michael. I don't necessarily buy all that, and I'd love to know why he chose that morning out of all the mornings to tell Bowyer to go next door and try and get some money out of Kelly. After all, she'd racked up a considerable debt and he seemed to be ok with it. 'She was down on her luck' was his excuse for that.

I first glommed onto McCarthy for Kelly 20 years ago. I haven't changed my mind since. Although Blotchy is an excellent candidate as well. If I thought Kelly was a Ripper killing I'd go for Blotchy.

However it occurs to me (if Kelly was a Ripper victim) that there may have been two people in on it. Lewis does see someone looking up the court. That someone may have been some kind of lookout, and that may be why the Ripper always managed to get away in time...

Hi Chava,

The room was in Mary Janes name, and I suspect that rent was collected in advance for the coming week, McCarthy sends Bowyer Friday morning...a holiday, so its effectively the week-end. And it does not appear Mary was expected to pay rent daily, but rather weekly.

McCarthy sent Bowyer to see if he could collect some rent....he was not sent for the arrears per se. And by that statement, and his at Inquest, back rent was collected.."as best one could."

I personally cant see any reason to suggest McCarthy had anything at all to do with Marys death, but I can see something else you mentioned...and it has some form of corroboration. An Accomplice for this killing. We do have a suspicious character watching the court, and we do have a Pardon issued for Accomplices within 24 hours of Marys death....something they had been loath to do since the first killings. But as a Senior Investigator said,..."there are certain reasons" why the pardon was felt warranted now. And it also stipulated that "after the fact" assistance by an Accomplice was covered.

I wouldnt be surprised if we have a scout and a murderer for this event....I would be surprised if neither knew Mary.

Cheers.

[Celesta]

[QUOTE=paul emmett;18478]Hi, Celesta.

I'm not convinced either, and I certianly don't want to be known as the Blotchy guy, BUT I think you are right: it is the most direct "solution." Even your monkey wrench brings some guilt with it, because when Blotchy saw Cox see him, he banged the door--I take it that was in haste to get inside.


I see no blotchies anywhere on you! Yes, I see your point about his slamming the door. She made a point to emphasize that, didn't she? I'll bet she thought he was Mary's killer for the rest of her life.

[paul emmett]

I see no blotchies anywhere on you! Yes, I see your point about his slamming the door. She made a point to emphasize that, didn't she? I'll bet she thought he was Mary's killer for the rest of her life.

I didn't see the second part: Cox made a point of it. You are right. He banged the door. Or from THE SCOTSMAN, "she never looked around, and he banged the door." Like they were both in a hurry to be away from Cox.

Don't think I don't realize that you can see neither blotchies NOR me!