Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[Chava]

Thanks Frank! And Merry Christmas to you.

That's a very plausible reason why Cox might have mentioned the money.

[chrismasonic]

just a thought
she might have cried "oh murder" cos someone knocked on her window in the middle of the night and gave her a fright...
as in
"Oh Murder you scared the **** out of me"

[Shelley]

Cry of Oh Murder

Personally i would go with Blotchy having left kelly's room long before the Killer arrived, Kelly was already way a wee bit drunk and lying on the bed when killer came in on surprise visit, she probably didn't move that much either due to the drink or knowing her visitor or both. Seems as two witnesses said they heard a cry of murder, is seems possible when Kelly was struck she was the one that cried ' Oh Murder ', i recall that it had been established some time ago with someone that kelly had defence wounds on her finger or thumb, so with the defence wounds and two witnesses saying a cry of murder, along with all the blood spattering Kelly was alive when she was struck, JTR had a taste for his victims already expired before he start to cut them open. So perhaps people could also tell the approx time via the chime of a Brewery clock not far away, at least.

[Nemo]

I think Kelly was alive before she was killed too...

Kelly seems to have been attacked when lying at the extreme right of the bed. She either had someone in the bed with her, or was preparing for someone to join her.

If she was drunk, alone, and not expecting visitors, why would she not just sprawl across the full width of the bed?

I think her position indicates that she went to bed but was expecting one of the Joes to arrive later, one of the Joes had already arrived and she was preparing for him entering her bed, or she was with a client. There is also the vague possibility that she had been on the right side after servicing a client and then fallen asleep while the client let himself out.

The cry of "Oh, murder" marks the onset of the attack when I think the killer covered her face - both to stifle her cry and possibly to prevent arterial blood splash.

The Ripper would have preferred to have been standing/kneeling at Kelly's right side I think. Because he was on the left, he seems to have killed her more awkwardly than the others and she had a chance to cry out and raise her hands in defence. (if it is a Ripper killing)

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Its amazing that even after all the years I have been involved with this case, there is always something new.
Chrismasonic has a notion that is among one of the best that being, the cry of 'Oh Murder' was the result of being awaken suddenly by someone she was not expecting , but neverless knew.
I have maintained that it was waking up from a nightmare, but his scenerio has a lot of merit.
I still however hold the view that the cry does not signify the start of the attack.
Regards Richard.

[Nemo]

Well....

I think that if a murder occurs and the time of death roughly coincides with the time that a cry of "Oh, murder" is heard, I would not be the only one to assume that the two were connected.

For the other scenario, Kelly would have been awake and able enough to attempt to defend herself, but would not cry out. Witnesses would have been more likely to have heard this assault as they would have been awakened by the cry. After hearing the cry, I think the witnesses said they heard no other noise.

I think the killer approached her and tried to knife her - upon which she cried out. The sheet was then pulled across her face and held tightly while her throat was cut.

I think it strange again that the motion of holding the sheet across her face and cutting her throat would be better accomplished from the right hand side of the bed if the killer was left-handed...

[Shelley]

Well....

I think that if a murder occurs and the time of death roughly coincides with the time that a cry of "Oh, murder" is heard, I would not be the only one to assume that the two were connected.

For the other scenario, Kelly would have been awake and able enough to attempt to defend herself, but would not cry out. Witnesses would have been more likely to have heard this assault as they would have been awakened by the cry. After hearing the cry, I think the witnesses said they heard no other noise.

I think the killer approached her and tried to knife her - upon which she cried out. The sheet was then pulled across her face and held tightly while her throat was cut.

I think it strange again that the motion of holding the sheet across her face and cutting her throat would be better accomplished from the right hand side of the bed if the killer was left-handed...

That Seems Plausible, but i recall i think it was the witness Prater who said she was woken up by her kitten around 3.30 or 4 am and heard a faint cry of murder, but she went off to sleep again, however both witnesses said they thought nothing about someone crying out ' O Murder ' but a third witness states that she heard no cry of murder and seems likely if she had, she would have had to have heard it from ' Outside Kelly's room ' in order to hear it and she also stated that she didn't sleep at all that night either because of being bothered that she owed money to someone, also a little furniture moving around shouldn't bother them either and noises of all sorts can be confused with one day or another some days quieter than others ( quieter days will stick in the mind as well as noiser days) just as transient neighbours could be mistaken from one identity from another and what they were doing as others have pointed out on thier posts. So for me i think i will still hold that it was Mary Kelly that cried out ' O Murder ' , i would have thought that if it was someone else with a stiffled cry of murder would certainly have fetched the police, and long before the rents collector found Kelly's body and the police forced themselves into the room, obviously the door was closed and probably closed by the killer when he left.

[Shelley]

Telling the Time

Hi Nemo,
Before i forget, that is a good explaination of how ordinary folk could get to work on time, with one helping the other with a an approx time scale, although i did find that Lawende the witness to Eddowes did have a watch himself it was stated, so an odd few could have had a watch, but i doubt that Mary Kelly's neighbours, or most of them would have. Also looking at Stewarts contribution under Prater thread, it has been posted that Prater said that the lodging house light was out so it was after 4 am and she heard a cry of ' O murder ', so the cry of ' O murder ' seems after 4 am sometime.

[Shelley]

Well....

I think that if a murder occurs and the time of death roughly coincides with the time that a cry of "Oh, murder" is heard, I would not be the only one to assume that the two were connected.

For the other scenario, Kelly would have been awake and able enough to attempt to defend herself, but would not cry out. Witnesses would have been more likely to have heard this assault as they would have been awakened by the cry. After hearing the cry, I think the witnesses said they heard no other noise.

I think the killer approached her and tried to knife her - upon which she cried out. The sheet was then pulled across her face and held tightly while her throat was cut.

I think it strange again that the motion of holding the sheet across her face and cutting her throat would be better accomplished from the right hand side of the bed if the killer was left-handed...

Nemo,
I am wondering with the cry of ' O Murder ' and i recall that the cry of ' Murder ' has been used generally amongst those, you know someone struck someone with a fist and shouts out Murder, or even on the basis of someone intimidating someone a fearful woman could just shout 'Murder!'. A general saying that handed down from generation to generation is the term ' We could all have been murdered in our beds! '. So i wonder in the possibility, that with Prater and Lews who got some sleep etc, and Prater came too and knocked diddles off, that they could just as well scrambled events of a generalisation of people or women crying out murder in thier heads and decided to connected it with what they learned upon Kelly's death, with Cox sating she was awake all night and didn't hear a cry of ' O Murder '. Is it just as reasonable to dismiss the cry didn't occur as well as it could have and come from Kelly herself, with taking the third witness Cox anyway?

[Nemo]

Hi Shelley

Praters testimony is very debatable

I am not even sure she heard any cry at all

Here is a selected text from a previous post by Stewart Evans...

Reading on in the lengthy report in the Daily Telegraph of 10th November there is the significant statement that "Some residents in the court declare that about a quarter to two they heard a faint cry of murder, which would seem to fix with tolerable exactitude the time at which the crime was committed; but against this must be set the statement of a woman residing at 26, Dorset-street, a house the back rooms of which abut upon the court, according to which a cry of murder was heard at three o'clock." [emphasis mine]

The only other witness to hear a cry of murder was Sarah Lewis who was staying the night, from 2.30 am onwards, with Mrs Keyler at No 2 Miller's Court, 'in the Court and on the left on the first floor.' 'Shortly before 4 o'clock' Sarah Lewis heard "a scream like that of a young woman, and seemed to be not far away, she screamed out murder..." According to Prater the cry, or scream, was "in a faint voice." It may well be that Lewis heard it more loudly as her window faced Kelly's, a floor lower, and that it was muffled to Prater as there was the thickness of the floor between her and Kelly as well as the fact that she was only just awakening and may not have registered it clearly.

However, the reference later in the report to the cry heard does refer to it being 'a faint cry', which would tie in with Prater, although the timing is out for both, no one having given the time of 'a quarter to two.' I should say it must refer to Prater, but there is a definite problem with the reporting which had earlier stated Prater had 'heard nothing.'

I would recommend reading the entire Elizabeth Prater thread debating where her room was - especially all the posts by Mr Evans

There is more information regarding the fact that Prater initially said she had heard nothing during the night.

I think there is a great possibility she picked up on Lewis' story later

There were apparently many others attesting to have heard a cry - Prater and Lewis were the only persons deemed important enough to be asked to give statements at the inquest - no doubt due to their close proximity to the crime scene. All the other stories were discredited - AND discounted (lol)

[Shelley]

What do you think Nemo?

Reading over the witnesses statements again, these points are interesting i think. Prater doesn't seem to emphasis and elaborate on the cry of ' O Murder ' indeed she says she thought nothing of it and says it could have been someone voicing out in thier sleep. But Lewis on the other hand her statement elaborates into seeing a man with a pale face with a black bag at about 2am on the corner or a little way up the street, However Hutchinson's statement does not seem to relate to this man or of the man and woman together, but Kelly has spoken with Hutchinson, so after Kelly having entertained Blotchy he must have left and Kelly has gone out again. Lewis says she has heard a woman scream ' Murder ', Prater says a faint cry of ' O Murder '. The women state had Kelly been singing they would have heard her, so wouldn't they all have heard ' O Murder ' ?. Cox says she was awake all night, but has left her room for sometime in the early hours of the morning. With people saying that they heard cries of ' Murder ' at a quarter to two, then if we take what Prater and Lewis have to say where it is around 4am, this seems unlikely with the time difference, but around that time Cox is back in her room and hears nothing. Prater may only be reinforcing Lewis's statement and not embelishing on the cry of ' O Murder ' in any case. I wonder if the cry ' Murder ' came from Prater and thinks because Lewis has heard the cry she gave in her sleep has decided to keep quiet and decided to side with Lewis's statement?

Caz might be right after all, but Prater didn't do diddles in, Prater thought Diddles was doing her in!

[Mort Belfry]

2. The ripper knocks and Mary opens the door for him. They are acquainted.
3. The ripper somehow knows that Mary is in her room and enters

I think 3 would also suggest they're acquainted.

[Celesta]

Except that no one saw Blotchy leave. If Mary was singing when Cox left and wasn't singing when Prater went up stairs, a matter of a few minutes, why didn't Prater see Blotchy leave? She was out in front of McCarthy's, or in that vicinity. She doesn't mention a man leaving the court. Sometime shortly after Cox left, Blotchy killed Mary. That's why Prater didn't hear the singing.

What if Hutch's story is bosh and Blotchy and Hutch are the same? Or accomplices.

Anyway, much of the time, I have a tendency to think that Jack came to Mary, if Blotchy isn't Jack.

[Shelley]

Except that no one saw Blotchy leave. If Mary was singing when Cox left and wasn't singing when Prater went up stairs, a matter of a few minutes, why didn't Prater see Blotchy leave? She was out in front of McCarthy's, or in that vicinity. She doesn't mention a man leaving the court. Sometime shortly after Cox left, Blotchy killed Mary. That's why Prater didn't hear the singing.

What if Hutch's story is bosh and Blotchy and Hutch are the same? Or accomplices.

Anyway, much of the time, I have a tendency to think that Jack came to Mary, if Blotchy isn't Jack.

Well i stuck my big foot in my mouth earlier beleiving that ' stout ' and ' Dark clothing ' meant also blotchy face. I fused Cox's statement & Lewis's statements together and came up with a LeCoxis i think
But just because Kelly wasn't singing anymore didn't mean she was dead, as the time of death from the Doctor's report stated around 3.30- 4 am, but Cox came back around 3.10 am. Hutchinson said he saw Mary around 2 am, so i still think Blotchy didn't do it.

[Celesta]

Well i stuck my big foot in my mouth earlier beleiving that ' stout ' and ' Dark clothing ' meant also blotchy face. I fused Cox's statement & Lewis's statements together and came up with a LeCoxis i think
But just because Kelly wasn't singing anymore didn't mean she was dead, as the time of death from the Doctor's report stated around 3.30- 4 am, but Cox came back around 3.10 am. Hutchinson said he saw Mary around 2 am, so i still think Blotchy didn't do it.

I was angling to see if anyone else had had the thought that the two men were one and the same. I know someone else mentioned it once on one of the archived threads. I came across it recently. It's true that Sarah saw a man loitering, but there's always a chance it wasn't Hutch, but Hutch decided to CYA with the police just in case. That's been talked about a lot, too.

On the negative side of Hutch equating to Blotchy, Blotchy's appearance doesn't match that of Hutchinson, as described by the press, which was that he had a military bearing or appearance. In addition, the police would have been like a duck on a June bug when they saw that carroty mustache. He could have shaved it of course. The two physical types don't match.

If you believe Hutch's statement, then, yes, Mary would be alive. If you don't believe him, them Mary might have already been dead by the 2 AM slot. What sticks in my mind is that no one heard a peep out of Mary after Cox left the last time.

Best,
Cel