Can't get past Maxwell

[Robert St Devil]

It was/is a common sense that the witness view the body first.I think in the Coles inquest a bartender witness had to view the body first before he can continue his testimony.In Abberline's letter to his superior he acknowledged that although he believed ,at least initially,in Hutch he still has to bring Hutch to the Shoreditch mortuary to view the body,which was a bit odd.
Right off the bat there is a provision in the Coroner's Act 1887 to have the jury and coroner view the body before the inquest begins ,which they did in MJK' s case,but not the witnesses.

Thank, Varqm & Julio

so… unless all the inquest witnesses (to include Joseph Barnett and Maria Harvey) conspired prior to the inquest to lay a false claim that the woman in the mortuary was Mary Kelly (an idea which is entirely laughable to me), then the simple conclusion is that the woman in the mortuary was, in fact, Mary Kelly. It puts to rest (for me, at least) any ripperologist theories that the woman who was murdered in No. 13 was anyone but Mary Kelly (eg. Mary Kelly used the chance encounter of a mutilated woman in her domicile to 1) not report the incident to the nearest constable and 2) to begin a new existence elsewhere )

in terms of Caroline Maxwell…
It doesn’t entirely bolster the case for Mrs Maxwell’s early morning sighting of Mary Kelly; but, it does favor the idea that she did. I am unfamiliar with the constabulary process for verifying a potential witness. I do know that Mary Kelly was not made available to public viewing while she was in the mortuary… so possibly Mrs Maxwell had to provide some description before she was able to view the corpse (“about 5’7”, blue eyes, long hair”); and then, when she was taken to see Mary Kelly’s body, she must have affirmed that, yes, this was the woman which she had spoken with early that morning (a narrative which she was still adhering to 2 days later at the inquest).

It’s reported that she took notice of Mary Kelly because she was unaccustomed to seeing her up-and-about at such an early hour, and that Mary was typical for bowing her hellos at Caroline. It’s relatable in a personal sense. I have coworkers (neighbors, even!) who I’ve only conversed with two (maybe three) times over the course of a year; still, i know them by name, and we commonly wave (ot acknowledge) at each other in passing.

[Varqm]

Thank, Varqm & Julio

so… unless all the inquest witnesses (to include Joseph Barnett and Maria Harvey) conspired prior to the inquest to lay a false claim that the woman in the mortuary was Mary Kelly (an idea which is entirely laughable to me), then the simple conclusion is that the woman in the mortuary was, in fact, Mary Kelly. It puts to rest (for me, at least) any ripperologist theories that the woman who was murdered in No. 13 was anyone but Mary Kelly (eg. Mary Kelly used the chance encounter of a mutilated woman in her domicile to 1) not report the incident to the nearest constable and 2) to begin a new existence elsewhere )

in terms of Caroline Maxwell…
It doesn’t entirely bolster the case for Mrs Maxwell’s early morning sighting of Mary Kelly; but, it does favor the idea that she did. I am unfamiliar with the constabulary process for verifying a potential witness. I do know that Mary Kelly was not made available to public viewing while she was in the mortuary… so possibly Mrs Maxwell had to provide some description before she was able to view the corpse (“about 5’7”, blue eyes, long hair”); and then, when she was taken to see Mary Kelly’s body, she must have affirmed that, yes, this was the woman which she had spoken with early that morning (a narrative which she was still adhering to 2 days later at the inquest).

It’s reported that she took notice of Mary Kelly because she was unaccustomed to seeing her up-and-about at such an early hour, and that Mary was typical for bowing her hellos at Caroline. It’s relatable in a personal sense. I have coworkers (neighbors, even!) who I’ve only conversed with two (maybe three) times over the course of a year; still, i know them by name, and we commonly wave (ot acknowledge) at each other in passing.

The police did a house to house search in Dorset St. .They must have gone to Ringers to check if MJK was really there.Abberline even knew the distance from Maxwell to outside Ringers where MJK was allegedly with a man, 25 yards.I guess the answer inside Ringers was they did not give much attention.
But surely if MJK drunk there they must have at least knew if a woman of the same profile went to drink or bought a drink there at around 7-9 am,this part is a but weird.3 days later during the inquest they still did not have a definite answer.
That Maxwell knew of MJK's dress was not unusual,she have seen her before and MJK probably wore the same dresses as she was poor.Julia saw MJK at 10 am Thursday,so it was not unusual for MJK to be up and about in the morning,and this might have been when Maxwell saw MJK .
On the evening of Nov. 9 Maxwell said to a reporter she did not know that MJK was an unfortunate,implying she heard it from somebody.On her inquest written statement she said after Joe left she obtained her living as an unfortunate.So a bit gossipy.Mccarthy believed she was killed earlier than daylight.
In any case the cry,Lewis's lurking man,MJK was killed lying down,to me she was killed at 4am.One doctors estimated TOD was around 2am the other around 6 am.,but TOD is a range and imprecise.

[Dickere]

Thank you Dickere, I concur, however Julio’s comment highlighted that ecchymosis is both the singular and plural form of the word, in theory I believe ‘distinct’ could therefore mean something like ‘separate from one another’?
From the OED:

That's a fair point, though something being 'separate from' isn't really much different from saying it is 'clearly different'. The different meanings are not really different in everyday practical terms.

[Robert St Devil]

The police did a house to house search in Dorset St. .They must have gone to Ringers to check if MJK was really there.Abberline even knew the distance from Maxwell to outside Ringers where MJK was allegedly with a man, 25 yards.I guess the answer inside Ringers was they did not give much attention.
But surely if MJK drunk there they must have at least knew if a woman of the same profile went to drink or bought a drink there at around 7-9 am,this part is a but weird.3 days later during the inquest they still did not have a definite answer.
That Maxwell knew of MJK's dress was not unusual,she have seen her before and MJK probably wore the same dresses as she was poor.Julia saw MJK at 10 am Thursday,so it was not unusual for MJK to be up and about in the morning,and this might have been when Maxwell saw MJK .
On the evening of Nov. 9 Maxwell said to a reporter she did not know that MJK was an unfortunate,implying she heard it from somebody.On her inquest written statement she said after Joe left she obtained her living as an unfortunate.So a bit gossipy.Mccarthy believed she was killed earlier than daylight.
In any case the cry,Lewis's lurking man,MJK was killed lying down,to me she was killed at 4am.One doctors estimated TOD was around 2am the other around 6 am.,but TOD is a range and imprecise.

I wanted to cast off the narrative that the murdered woman in the mortuary was anyone but Mary Kelly; and, if the various inquest witnesses verified that the body was that of Mary Kelly’s, then i’m resolved that it was her. {Some of the assertions in this thread have gone off the tracks}

And, if Caroline Maxwell was brought to the mortuary to identify the body as that of the woman to whom she had conversed, then it also casts off the other forum narrative that “somehow” Caroline Maxwell must have been confused about who she was speaking to that morning.

still…

i’m left slightly puzzled. I can rationalize (for lack of a better word) misremembering one day for another. However, to go down that path, we have to accept that Caroline Maxwell misremembered two sightings of Mary Kelly: the first sighting being their shared conversation about the half pint of ale; and, the second sighting being when she saw Mary Kelly in front of the Brit with a man (where Abberline states it was 25 yards off). It’s obvious that Mrs Maxwell connects this second sighting with returning from her errand (which was verified?), which she was certain happened on Friday morning.

[Aethelwulf]

On the theme of the later t.o.d, aren't there various sightings of a smartly dressed man with blood stains/acting in a strange manner? I think there is the man crossing Mitre Square with bloodstains on his clothing that morning, the man saying 'he knows more about the murder than you' (can't remember who he was talking to) and the man that dropped a newspaper wrapped parcel and denied owning it - he made off and the package was found to contain a strong 6 inch knife with a peculiar shaped handle and a blood stained brown kid glove. Be useful to have a a look at those but not sure where they are.

[Robert St Devil]

On the theme of the later t.o.d, aren't there various sightings of a smartly dressed man with blood stains/acting in a strange manner? I think there is the man crossing Mitre Square with bloodstains on his clothing that morning, the man saying 'he knows more about the murder than you' (can't remember who he was talking to) and the man that dropped a newspaper wrapped parcel and denied owning it - he made off and the package was found to contain a strong 6 inch knife with a peculiar shaped handle and a blood stained brown kid glove. Be useful to have a a look at those but not sure where they are.

Y'know, Aethelwulf, that ties into something else I noticed about Caroline Maxwell at the inquest.

Morning Advertiser 13 November 1888

A Juror. - If the man that you saw the deceased with had worn a silk hat should you have noticed it?

Caroline Maxwell - I don't know that I should. I am accustomed to see all classes of people, but I don't take any notice of them.

Juror - But would you have noticed his hat if it had been a silk one? -

Caroline Maxwell - If he had worn a silk hat I might have noticed it.


Prior to this exchange, the only mention of a hat is the black billy-**** worn by the man seen by Mary Ann Cox. However, I interpret a silk hat as a fashionable top hat (of the type popularly associated with Jack the Ripper in movies). It seems like a peculiar question considering up to this point of the inquest, no one at the inquest has mentioned anyone wearing a silk hat. So, I wonder what prompted this juror to repeatedly press this particular peculiar question on Mrs Maxwell.

For instance...

Were the jurors privy to viewing the evidence removed from the scene of the crime? Could the brim of the burned hat found in Mary Kelly's fireplace been made of silk?
Or, by the time of the inquest, was there a rumor floating about that Mary Kelly was seen with a man wearing a silk hat?
Or... ??

[Wickerman]

The police did a house to house search in Dorset St. .They must have gone to Ringers to check if MJK was really there.

It was reported in the Star that the Ringers we're asked if Kelly had been there late Friday morning. Mrs Ringer said it was a quiet morning, if Kelly had been there she would have known.

[Varqm]

I wanted to cast off the narrative that the murdered woman in the mortuary was anyone but Mary Kelly; and, if the various inquest witnesses verified that the body was that of Mary Kelly’s, then i’m resolved that it was her. {Some of the assertions in this thread have gone off the tracks}

And, if Caroline Maxwell was brought to the mortuary to identify the body as that of the woman to whom she had conversed, then it also casts off the other forum narrative that “somehow” Caroline Maxwell must have been confused about who she was speaking to that morning.

still…

i’m left slightly puzzled. I can rationalize (for lack of a better word) misremembering one day for another. However, to go down that path, we have to accept that Caroline Maxwell misremembered two sightings of Mary Kelly: the first sighting being their shared conversation about the half pint of ale; and, the second sighting being when she saw Mary Kelly in front of the Brit with a man (where Abberline states it was 25 yards off). It’s obvious that Mrs Maxwell connects this second sighting with returning from her errand (which was verified?), which she was certain happened on Friday morning.

In mis-remembering a day the 2 sightings within that day are included.

[Varqm]

It was reported in the Star that the Ringers we're asked if Kelly had been there late Friday morning. Mrs Ringer said it was a quiet morning, if Kelly had been there she would have known.

I must have missed this,I will look for it.If this indeed happened then that's it Maxwell had the wrong day.
Maybe it was not in the Star newspaper?

[Joshua Rogan]

It was reported in the Star that the Ringers we're asked if Kelly had been there late Friday morning. Mrs Ringer said it was a quiet morning, if Kelly had been there she would have known.

Maxwell tells slightly different stories about the pub visited by Kelly.
In her police statement, she suggests that Mary should get a drink at the Britannia, whereas in her court transcript she only assumed that Mary had been there as she nodded her head in that direction, and was later standing outside it.

Maxwell police statement;
"I said why don't you go to Mrs Ringers (meaning the Public House at the corner of Dorset Street called the Britannia) and have 1/2 pint of beer. She said I have been there and had it, but I have brought it all up again at the same time she pointed to some vomit in the roadway. I then passed on"

Maxwell inquest testimony;
"I asked her to have a drink, she said oh no I have just had a drink of ale and have brought it all up, it was in the road I saw it - as she said this she motioned with her head and I concluded she meant she had been to the Brittania [sic] at the corner, I left her saying I pitied her feelings"

It's quite conceivable that Kelly had been to another pub, not necessarily the nearest one. Mrs Prater, for instance, walked past the Britannia that morning and across the road to get her drink at the Ten Bells.

[Varqm]

Maxwell tells slightly different stories about the pub visited by Kelly.
In her police statement, she suggests that Mary should get a drink at the Britannia, whereas in her court transcript she only assumed that Mary had been there as she nodded her head in that direction, and was later standing outside it.

Maxwell police statement;
"I said why don't you go to Mrs Ringers (meaning the Public House at the corner of Dorset Street called the Britannia) and have 1/2 pint of beer. She said I have been there and had it, but I have brought it all up again at the same time she pointed to some vomit in the roadway. I then passed on"

Maxwell inquest testimony;
"I asked her to have a drink, she said oh no I have just had a drink of ale and have brought it all up, it was in the road I saw it - as she said this she motioned with her head and I concluded she meant she had been to the Brittania [sic] at the corner, I left her saying I pitied her feelings"

It's quite conceivable that Kelly had been to another pub, not necessarily the nearest one. Mrs Prater, for instance, walked past the Britannia that morning and across the road to get her drink at the Ten Bells.

In the written statement of the inquest,she said...
why don't you go to Ringers....and have 1/2 pint of beer,she said I have been there and had it...
It could be oral testimony takes precedence.

Maxwell was at Ten Bells 5:45 am.

[Robert St Devil]

Maxwell tells slightly different stories about the pub visited by Kelly.
In her police statement, she suggests that Mary should get a drink at the Britannia, whereas in her court transcript she only assumed that Mary had been there as she nodded her head in that direction, and was later standing outside it.

Maxwell police statement;
"I said why don't you go to Mrs Ringers (meaning the Public House at the corner of Dorset Street called the Britannia) and have 1/2 pint of beer. She said I have been there and had it, but I have brought it all up again at the same time she pointed to some vomit in the roadway. I then passed on"

Maxwell inquest testimony;
"I asked her to have a drink, she said oh no I have just had a drink of ale and have brought it all up, it was in the road I saw it - as she said this she motioned with her head and I concluded she meant she had been to the Brittania [sic] at the corner, I left her saying I pitied her feelings"

It's quite conceivable that Kelly had been to another pub, not necessarily the nearest one. Mrs Prater, for instance, walked past the Britannia that morning and across the road to get her drink at the Ten Bells.

Two press reports of the inquest have Mrs Maxwell expressing an assumption that Mry Kelly had been to The Brittania

Morning Post 13 Nov 1888
I have just had half a pint of ale, and I have brought it up." She did not say where she had the beer, but by the motion she made I should imagine that she had it at the "Britannia" beer-house, at the corner of the street

Daily Telegraph 13 Nov 188&
She said, "I've had a glass of beer, and I've brought it up again"; and it was in the road. I imagined she had been in the Britannia beer-shop at the corner of the street.

so i agree Joshua that it is conceivable that Mary Kelly may have went elsewhere for this morning beer. Of course i don’t understand the discrepancy between two press separate reports and Varqm’s written inquest statement.

still, if we go down that path of her visiting the Brit, it makes for a very cold assumption on the forum’s part bc there is this unspoken assumption that Mary Kelly made herself known to the establishment by bellying up to the bar and buying a half-pint on her own shilling when there are other plausible alternatives such as sharing half of someone else’s pint.

for me, the real question is whether or not Jack the Ripper could have accomplished this entire murder within the span of 9am to 10-or-so in the morning; and considering what he has proven in the past, I’m of the opinion that Yes he very well could have. Thereby, i can’t entirely balk on Mrs Maxwell’s assertion that she saw Mary Kelly early that Friday morning.

[Aethelwulf]

Y'know, Aethelwulf, that ties into something else I noticed about Caroline Maxwell at the inquest.

Morning Advertiser 13 November 1888

A Juror. - If the man that you saw the deceased with had worn a silk hat should you have noticed it?

Caroline Maxwell - I don't know that I should. I am accustomed to see all classes of people, but I don't take any notice of them.

Juror - But would you have noticed his hat if it had been a silk one? -

Caroline Maxwell - If he had worn a silk hat I might have noticed it.


Prior to this exchange, the only mention of a hat is the black billy-**** worn by the man seen by Mary Ann Cox. However, I interpret a silk hat as a fashionable top hat (of the type popularly associated with Jack the Ripper in movies). It seems like a peculiar question considering up to this point of the inquest, no one at the inquest has mentioned anyone wearing a silk hat. So, I wonder what prompted this juror to repeatedly press this particular peculiar question on Mrs Maxwell.

For instance...

Were the jurors privy to viewing the evidence removed from the scene of the crime? Could the brim of the burned hat found in Mary Kelly's fireplace been made of silk?
Or, by the time of the inquest, was there a rumor floating about that Mary Kelly was seen with a man wearing a silk hat?
Or... ??

Curious. On the subject of fancy hats, Bury's original landlady in Dundee said that he would go about in a tweed suit during the day, and then change in the evening into a black coat and satin hat. Sure enough, in his belongings was a tile hat - a tall silk hat. Strangely, he also had a silk sash, black kid gloves and what I thought was a fur-lined coat, but looking at the original writing the last letter is a k - cloak. He wore so many rings on his fingers that his neighbours in Dundee remarked on it. As well, some of the frontal sketches of him in his jail outfit show a styled mustache that is slightly turned up at the ends. Throw in that the police found out he was missing from his lodgings on the night kelly died, and they thought he looked very like the man seen talking to kelly, and that from what his neighbours said he had the opportunity to commit the crimes, and he is a confirmed sexually motivated killer who mutilated, I'm going for a 4 am t.o.d (i.e., the screams) by Aman. I have no answer for Maxwell, however! can hear the Hutch suspectors choking on there hot choccy!

[etenguy]

I'm going for a 4 am t.o.d (i.e., the screams) by Aman. I have no answer for Maxwell, however! can hear the Hutch suspectors choking on there hot choccy!

Hi Aethelwulf

You make a good case but it does not account for Maxwell as you were open about stating. And therein lies the essence of this thread. It is highly unlikely that Maxwell could have seen MJK. Is there an alternative explanation for Maxwell's evidence (Yes - she was lying. Suggesting it was some kind of mistaken identity or mistake about the day is not at all convincing)? We have no reason to believe Maxwell was lying - she gains nothing from lying (as far as we know) and the police thought her honest and reliable. So it is highly unlikely she was lying.

So we are left with two equally unlikely situations, one of which must be true. In the absence of further data, I am inclined to believe that MJK was murdered later (9.00am ish) but as you say, that will spook those who believe Hutch was involved/the murderer and i am sure many will believe Maxwell lying is the more likely of the two scenarios.

[mpriestnall]

The t.o.d. evidence and the Maxwell/Lewis sightings can be simply explained by MJK not being the Miller's Court victim.