Can't get past Maxwell

[etenguy]

Well, murderers do kill in a victim's home in broad daylight. We know this to be true.

It should be said also that when newspaper reporters were taken to Mary's room during the day, they were struggling to see the contents of the room and so it's fair to say there wasn't a great deal of light getting into that room during daytime (for outsiders to see what was going on inside).

One obstacle is that the medical evidence tells us Mary was murdered lying close to the partition which suggests someone else was in bed with her. You would have to believe that after 8.45am, Mary found a client or some lover and they went to bed to go to sleep. Presumably 9am in the morning at the earliest.

Now, Victorian age sleeping habits weren't the same as ours. They believed that the optimum sleeping pattern was sleep for a few hours, get up at say 4in the morning to do some house chores or something, and then back to sleep for a few hours.

Elizabeth Prater for example got up at 5, went to the Ten Bells and then went back to sleep until 11.

I've never believed that the "oh murder" came from Mary. There is good reason to discount this.

My opinion is that Mary was murdered much earlier than 4am, in line with most of the murders, but the idea that Mary was murdered around 9 in the morning is not as outlandish as some would have us believe (as per the aforementioned points).

Hi FM

Thank you, some interesting points.

I agree re the scream of murder. If you are attacked would you shout murder? I think you would scream or possibly shout for help.

I really can't decide what the evidence tells us about time of death - just like Chapman, there are reasons to believe it was earlier and other reasons to believe it was later - and once again it is a doctor's estimate pitched against a witness statement.

[Joshua Rogan]

I am not aware of other witnesses describing Kelly's attire - most who give descriptions talk about a man who they had seen with her, eg Hutchinson. That Maxwell gave a full description of MJK's attire does add an air of honesty and authenticity to her account, at least in my view.

Mrs Cox gave a description which matches Maxwell's;

"What clothes had Mary Jane on ? - She had no hat; a red pelerine and a shabby skirt."

[etenguy]

Mrs Cox have a description which matches Maxwell's;

"What clothes had Mary Jane on ? - She had no hat; a red pelerine and a shabby skirt."

Thanks Joshua - I had missed that.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

Thank you, some interesting points.

I agree re the scream of murder. If you are attacked would you shout murder? I think you would scream or possibly shout for help.

I really can't decide what the evidence tells us about time of death - just like Chapman, there are reasons to believe it was earlier and other reasons to believe it was later - and once again it is a doctor's estimate pitched against a witness statement.

Hi Eten,

The most experienced doctor of them all, Dr Phillips, believed Mary was murdered between 2am and 8am. In terms of skilled and experienced medical people being able to pin down when Mary was killed, I think this timeframe speaks volumes, in the main due to the passage of time. 9.15am wouldn't be that much of a stretch in this context.

[Joshua Rogan]

Elizabeth Prater for example got up at 5, went to the Ten Bells and then went back to sleep until 11.

She had been drinking, and no doubt went for some hair of the dog as soon as the pubs opened. Which, incidentally, is what Mrs Maxwell claimed Mary had just done when they met.

[Fleetwood Mac]

She had been drinking, and no doubt went for some hair of the dog as soon as the pubs opened. Which, incidentally, is what Mrs Maxwell claimed Mary had just done when they met.

In those days, tap water wasn't trusted and so booze early in the morning was a means of quenching thirst. 'Could be why Mary, short of a few bob, had empty ginger beer bottles in her room when there was a tap in Miller's Court.

Either way, 7 or 8 hours continuous sleep is a modern invention. Getting up during the night for a few hours and going back to sleep, was commonplace during the Victorian era.

[Wickerman]

...
I think you may be referring to Maurice Lewis. I do not think he gets quite the same references for reliability as Maxwell does and nor does he claim a conversation. A sighting from a distance is much more open to mistake than having a conversation with someone. In fact I think the conversation rules out a mistake - it either happened or Maxwell lied in my view.

There are several brief accounts, the earliest was reported in the same sentence as Lewis's story, but not connected I think.
Here is a more detailed account..

"Many persons who have been interviewed state that the unfortunate woman never left the house at 26 Dorset court after she entered it on Thursday midnight, while on the other hand numerous persons who declare that they were companions of the deceased, and knew her well, state that she came out of her house at eight o'clock on Friday morning for provisions, and, furthermore, that they were drinking with her in the Britannia, a local tavern, at ten o'clock on the same morning as her mutilated body was found at eleven."
Evening News, 10 Nov. 1888.

Even Lewis's story reads like a mistake to me. The error though I suspect was the reporter's own, not Lewis. Rather than Kelly being seen going for milk, it was Maxwell who went for milk. The mix up cannot have been Lewis's, as he was in the court, likely not able to see Maxwell. So it must have been the reporter who got his "she's & Her's" all mixed up between Kelly & Maxwell.

[Abby Normal]

She had been drinking, and no doubt went for some hair of the dog as soon as the pubs opened. Which, incidentally, is what Mrs Maxwell claimed Mary had just done when they met.

thanks joshua and eten
well now this is a conundrum isnt it? how could maxwell have the wrong person if she described what mary was wearing that night that matches another witness AND the clothes found in her room?

[etenguy]

thanks joshua and eten
well now this is a conundrum isnt it? how could maxwell have the wrong person if she described what mary was wearing that night that matches another witness AND the clothes found in her room?

Hi Abby

I have always thought that the police position, that Maxwell mixed up the day she met MJK was ridiculous. How do you mix up the day someone is so awfully murdered with a different day. The police are not stupid - they must have known how ridiculous a suggestion that is. But they did not feel confident to suggest Maxwell confused MJK with another woman - which given Maxwell said she did not know her well was perhaps the more likely mistake if one had been made. But there was too much talking against that:
a) Maxwell said she knew her
b) Maxwell had used Mary's name when talking to her
c) Maxwell was able to say what MJK was wearing and there was some evidence which supported that outfit.

That leaves me with two options
1. MJK was murdered at around 9.00am
2. Maxwell lied. (But both Abberline and Walter Dew vouched for her reliability)

I'm left thinking MJK was killed at 9,00am, but that does not fit with the murderer's normal timing - was being indoors just an opportunity he took because it presented itself. It would mean Blotchy and Hutch's man are likely off the hook in this case.

[etenguy]

There are several brief accounts, the earliest was reported in the same sentence as Lewis's story, but not connected I think.
Here is a more detailed account..

"Many persons who have been interviewed state that the unfortunate woman never left the house at 26 Dorset court after she entered it on Thursday midnight, while on the other hand numerous persons who declare that they were companions of the deceased, and knew her well, state that she came out of her house at eight o'clock on Friday morning for provisions, and, furthermore, that they were drinking with her in the Britannia, a local tavern, at ten o'clock on the same morning as her mutilated body was found at eleven."
Evening News, 10 Nov. 1888.

Even Lewis's story reads like a mistake to me. The error though I suspect was the reporter's own, not Lewis. Rather than Kelly being seen going for milk, it was Maxwell who went for milk. The mix up cannot have been Lewis's, as he was in the court, likely not able to see Maxwell. So it must have been the reporter who got his "she's & Her's" all mixed up between Kelly & Maxwell.

Hi Wickerman

I agree there is a lot of opportunity for confusion more widely around that morning - specifically the testimony of Maxwell I think sits above this though. She had a conversation with MJK and you can see my thoughts on the possibility of mistaking the day or the person in my post above.

[harry]

A more recent murder,(1965?)that of Arthur Thomas near Lydney,Gloucestershire,UK,might be of interest.A witness swore to seeing Thomas alive at least a week after medical evidence was submitted showing he had been killed.The witness knew Thomas.A man named Brittles? was found guilty of the murder.

[harry]

Correction.The murdered man was Peter Thomas.

[Wickerman]

thanks eten
did any of the witnesses that saw her thay night describe her wearing those clothes?

Maxwell did describe Kelly's clothes in her police statement (9 Nov.) as: "dark dress, black velvet bodice, and coloured wrapper around her neck".

The next day (10th), the Daily Telegraph wrote: "...her garments, including a velvet bodice, were arranged by the fireplace."

Bodices were very common, and was it the same colour?

[Darryl Kenyon]

I wrote this on another thread. Apologies if it sounds a bit caustic.

Right so Jack killed Mary at say between nine and ten in the morning. The cry of Murder at around 4 in the morning, right smack in-between the two Doctor's death estimates was entirely coincidental even though Sarah Lewis thought it came from the direction of Mary's room,and Elizabeth Prater thought it was somewhere in the court also. After all the cry was common though. Elizabeth Prater said, in most accounts the cry was common from the street not the court.
When Catherine Pickett went banging on Mary's door at 7 30 in the morning, she wasn't dead, just asleep or out and about, even though nobody saw her out and about at that time and if the knocking did wake Mary up, she then got dressed , went out and got herself some ale, drunk it, threw it up, ate some fish and potatoes, possibly had to cook the meal all in an hour with the horrors of drink on her. Whilst nobody saw her going out, probably buying the ale and throwing it back up. Speaking of nobody seeing her, nobody saw her bring a client back between nine and ten, or probably solicit him for that matter [ apart from possibly Mrs Maxwell, plaid coat man] on Dorset st at the closest, maybe even on Commercial rd even though it was probably busy around that time, including her landlord or his assistant who probably would have asked her for his weekly rent [ note weekly IE probably paid on the same day each week Friday, not Thursday night]. Nobody saw Mary from the court put her hand through the broken window either, though said window leads directly on to the court. And the killer was really in luck because nobody saw him leave Mary's room half an hour later in broad daylight. Lucky for him he changed his MO from being a night stalker killing undercover of darkness, where he could more likely, [and did] slip away during the night.
Speaking of darkness Abberline's perfectly plausible explanation of the remains of the ladies clothing in the grate being burnt to give the killer light must be wrong, after all he really wouldn't need that light at ten in the morning. so why Mary burnt some clothing , [possibly Maria Harvey's] is anyone's guess.
As is why Mrs Maxwell was interviewed on the ninth, and yet because her testimony disagreed wholly with what the police thought, why the Police, who would surely have asked around didn't find anybody else to testify on the twelve to back the timing of her death [mid morning], three days later even though say, Maria Harvey testified without really adding anything to when Mary was killed. Strange that.
Oh and i almost forgot Maurice Lewis who saw Mary even later and in a pub drinking with people at that. The killer must have worked at the speed of light to get Mary back to her room unseen and then cut her up and leave all within forty five mins
PS Apologies if i am wrong but i cannot find anywhere were Mary told Caroline that she was from limerick. Only - I believe she was from Limerick, or I heard etc

Regards Darryl

[mpriestnall]

Hi Mpriestnall

I have heard a couple of versions of 'it was someone else' - from witness protection to hiding from creditors to at the extreme avoiding a royal hit squad. The restricted identification and rushed inquest lends credence to a cover up - and there have been others that have since come to light, such as the Cleveland Street Scandal. But even if Maxwell is correct - MJK was not behaving in a way that suggests she was at the centre of some conspiracy to whisk her into hiding, so I don't think this is the answer.

OK thanks.