Can't get past Maxwell

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

I thought all the statistics were a bit surprising.

I can't access the article again but from memory I think nighttime was deemed to be 7pm to 7am.

So, 1/3 of murders in the United States during 2017 happened outside of that period. I'd say more common during daytime than we assume.

[FISHY1118]

Hi George , although i believe it was indeed Mary Kelly that was the victim inside millers court , i cant definitively discount what your saying. The evidence that is available to us all, and in nearly all the victims cases can be just as easily provide us with any number of different outcomes where ones interpretation is given .


This exact type of reasoning of opinions regarding such evidence was missing or ignored i believe on the recent Richardson thread.

But you have made some very interesting points thats for sure . I will look into this with an open mind .

[GBinOz]

This is what I think transpired. MJK was letting prostitute friends use her room. This is why Barnett left her. Shortly after 3am she vacated the premises to allow an unknown woman friend to use the room. That woman brought home JtR and suffered the consequences. MJK returns shortly before 8am and discovers the body. She goes into Dorset street and vomits from what she has just seen, and encounters Maxwell. Still in a daze she retreats to familiar ground in the pub, perhaps confiding in friends to seek advice. She returns to the room and dresses in her dead friends clothes, leaving her own clothes carefully folded. She then disappears back into the mists of obscurity from whence she came.

Maxwell was rock solid and correct, and corroborated by Lewis and others. There is absolutely no reason to doubt her testimony. MJK emptied her stomach but the stomach that contained the fish and chips was in the body of the unknown friend lying dead in No13. The cries of "murder" and the ToD can still apply, just to a person other than MJK.

I expect a torrent of disagreement from traditionalists that will label this conspiracy theory. Among them will be those that fully endorse Richardson and Long as 100% above reproach, but will happily challenge the evidence of Maxwell. I will engage in debate with all but those who like to indulge in pejoratives regarding any different theory.

Cheers, George

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.

I will say this only once and very quietly lest I invoke the curse of the John Richardson thread. Doctors today have no reliable method for estimating time of death and Courts today would not accept medical evidence for time of death. It follows then that the doctors of 1888 also had no reliable method to estimate time of death and their best efforts are no more than a rough guide.

I agree, Etenguy but at the same time I don't think they pulled the time out of a hat. They must have had some basis for their estimate of TOD. And even if we could discount it completely, it does not make Maxwell correct by default. And if Maxwell was in fact correct, what conclusions can we draw from that? Does it exonerate any suspects or point the finger at a particular suspect? I think at best all we can say is that it therefore wasn't Jack (which seems a stretch) or that it was Jack and he simply deviated from his previous M.O.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

i have a hard time beleiving she was murdered in day light morning, as she was according to maxwell, up and about, going to pubs, talking to people here and there, and maxwell is the only one to see her?
meanwhile shes seen by multiple witnesses when shes out and about the night before? you would think if she was up and about as much as maxwell said she was she would have been seen by a plethora of witnesses that morning.
maxwell describing the same clothes though is somewhat intriguing, but to me it seems something may be going on kind of fishy with maxwell. Didnt a hoax letter come from maxwells address?

[etenguy]

Murder, Robbery and Driving While Impaired Happen At Night | 2019-06-14 | Security Magazine

The above is a link to an article detailing violent crime in the United States during 2017, and so a broad sample by anyone's standards.

Interestingly, the percentage of murders occurring during night-time is 65% and the percentage of rape/sexual assault 59%. I assumed both percentages would be higher.

Hi FM

I thought all the statistics were a bit surprising.

[etenguy]

Maxwell and the doctors are joined at the hip. If you want to make an argument supporting Maxwell you then have to explain how and why the doctors got it wrong.c.d.

Hi c.d.

I will say this only once and very quietly lest I invoke the curse of the John Richardson thread. Doctors today have no reliable method for estimating time of death and Courts today would not accept medical evidence for time of death. It follows then that the doctors of 1888 also had no reliable method to estimate time of death and their best efforts are no more than a rough guide.

[etenguy]

But the murderer would've been well aware that killing between 1am - 4am carried less risk of being disturbed than 9am onwards, as supported by the fact Indian Harry went to check on MJK that morning.

Hi Harry

I absolutely agree - but it is possible the murderer took his chances when an in door opportunity presented itself.

[etenguy]

Well, on reflection, the window was broken after an argument between the two and so there is something on record there to say when they were arguing someone damaged something.

I would say it is more likely that the fire was burning when Mary went back with Blotchy, and it would have been more useful to the WM to put the fire out. He was capable of doing what he wanted to do with next to no light as per past experience.

I'm not fully sure on how it works with putting clothes on a fire to put a fire out. I think it depends upon the material of the clothes. If the kettle had water in, then the obvious solution was to douse the clothes in water and use them to put the fire out. Then again, would the clothes have burned in that event.

I'd say it's unlikely Mary had a part in the clothes burning given that either someone was expecting to get them back or in the absence of that, they would have had some monetary value at a market.

Most likely to me is that the WM used the clothes to put the fire out in some way.

Quite possibly, FM.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Murder, Robbery and Driving While Impaired Happen At Night | 2019-06-14 | Security Magazine

The above is a link to an article detailing violent crime in the United States during 2017, and so a broad sample by anyone's standards.

Interestingly, the percentage of murders occurring during night-time is 65% and the percentage of rape/sexual assault 59%. I assumed both percentages would be higher.

[c.d.]

Maxwell and the doctors are joined at the hip. If you want to make an argument supporting Maxwell you then have to explain how and why the doctors got it wrong.

c.d.

[Harry D]

I agree with you, Harry - to have committed the murder at 9.00am (ish) and then leave into busy streets was a risk. Especially within a building where he might have been trapped. But I suspect that whatever time the murder happened the murderer thought they were safer in an indoor environment than on the street (and certainly the manner in which poor MJK was mutilated suggests he did not feel the need to rush). The only risk points coming into the busy street is leaving the building, which he might have timed to avoid drawing attention and ensuring that any blood was not obvious beyond that people might expect from men at that time. Not knowing a murder had taken place, most people would not be vigilant about a random man on the street, especially with the bustle of the Lord Mayor's show.

But the murderer would've been well aware that killing between 1am - 4am carried less risk of being disturbed than 9am onwards, as supported by the fact Indian Harry went to check on MJK that morning.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

I cannot possibly know for sure, but don't think it too far fetched that an angry (rather than vengeful) person might do something irrational. There are other possibilities of course, but it is noteworthy that the Harvey clothes were burned but Mary's clothes stayed nicely folded on the chair.

Well, on reflection, the window was broken after an argument between the two and so there is something on record there to say when they were arguing someone damaged something.

I would say it is more likely that the fire was burning when Mary went back with Blotchy, and it would have been more useful to the WM to put the fire out. He was capable of doing what he wanted to do with next to no light as per past experience.

I'm not fully sure on how it works with putting clothes on a fire to put a fire out. I think it depends upon the material of the clothes. If the kettle had water in, then the obvious solution was to douse the clothes in water and use them to put the fire out. Then again, would the clothes have burned in that event.

I'd say it's unlikely Mary had a part in the clothes burning given that either someone was expecting to get them back or in the absence of that, they would have had some monetary value at a market.

Most likely to me is that the WM used the clothes to put the fire out in some way.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.

In what way mistaken, if not about the time, the day or the person she was talking to?

I don't know for a fact that she was mistaken. But time, day or person are all possibilities.

c.d.

[etenguy]

The problem is that her statement doesn't exist in a vacuum. If she is correct, then the doctors' TOD is wrong. If the doctors are correct, then she is wrong. There is no good answer to this problem. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

c.d.

This is true - either the t.o.d. estimate of the doctors is wrong or Maxwell is (or you subscribe to a cover up/conspiracy). But I think we can reason which is more likely.