John McCarthy? : 1879

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Everyone,

Mary Kelly's Landlord John McCarthy was born in 1851, making him 28 in 1879. Unlike many other references to 'John McCarthy' in the press this one matches his age. This was from Thames Magistrates Court, a case before Mr Lushington on Tuesday 24 June 1879

'AN ATTEMPT TO DROWN A POLICE OFFICER.- John McCarthy, 28, described as a labourer, was charged with assaulting Police constable John Rich, one of East and West India Dock Company's police, and also with assaulting Police-constable Henry Morphett, 243 K. one of the warrant officers of the court.- As the prisoner was drunk and causing a disturbance on board a vessel lying in the West India Dock, the officers were called to remove him. They did so, and when they got him on the wharf he struck Morphett, and tried to throw him into the water - The prisoner was sentence to three months hard labour.'
East London Observer 28 June 1879

So, can we find out any more ? Have we any knowledge of where this man may have been sent for his three months hard labour ?

[Cogidubnus]

Sorry Mr Lucky but I thought our John McCarthy was born in Dieppe in 1849 making him 30 in 1879.

There are so many McCarthys in the East End at this time, (as I know from looking at my own ancestry which includes an unconnected John and Jeremiah McCarthy), that it's incredibly tricky tracking down the right ones!

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

Hard Labour

My g grandfather was from same area and sentenced to 12 months hard labour. They put him as a stoker on a ship. I dont know if this is usual or not...

Pat

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Pat

I'm far from forgetting your research!

I'm sure you'll agree with me and my Uncle Brian...too many bloody McCarthys!

Who was your great grandfather and where was he? Which ships? Sounds interesting...(pm or email me if you'd rather!)

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

THOMAS SHAVE, Theft. simple larceny, 11th December 1882.
Old Bailey Online
Bit of a Dodgy Geezer !
Looked like he and the police knew each other...

A few Jeremiahs on there Dave !

Pat

[Wickerman]

Hi Everyone,

Mary Kelly's Landlord John McCarthy was born in 1851, making him 28 in 1879.

That's one of them.

Sorry Mr Lucky but I thought our John McCarthy was born in Dieppe in 1849 making him 30 in 1879.

And that's the other.

There were two John McCarthy's living at 27 Dorset St. in the 1891 census. One, Kelly's landlord, age 42, General Shopkeeper, born in Spitalfields, the other, also aged 42, Grocer, was born in Dieppe, France.
Plus Daniel McCarthy, aged 27, Grocer, born Southwark, all the McCarthy's were married, and Henry & Ann Hampton? (not easy to read). Plus two domestics, and 6 kids....

A full house.

[Cogidubnus]

Quis...

Hi Jon

Sorry mate but I thought Chris Scott had established MJKs landlord was the one born in Dieppe, and the other one (apparently same age) was surmised to be some kind of cousin?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

THOMAS SHAVE, Theft. simple larceny, 11th December 1882.
Old Bailey Online
Bit of a Dodgy Geezer !
Looked like he and the police knew each other...

A few Jeremiahs on there Dave !

Pat

Hi Pat

Yes and a few John's too...I looked for both case-related ones, and family ones, some while back! McCarthys are a bit of a bad old lot!

All the best

Dave

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Cog, Paddy , Wickerman

Sorry Mr Lucky but I thought our John McCarthy was born in Dieppe in 1849 making him 30 in 1879.

Oops! I've had a look and it's the A to Z that I've got 1851 from. I'll update my search notes, thanks for your help.

There are so many McCarthys in the East End at this time, (as I know from looking at my own ancestry which includes an unconnected John and Jeremiah McCarthy), that it's incredibly tricky tracking down the right ones!

Yes, I think it must have been a couple of years ago when I found the first 'John McCarthy' and that's probably when I would have checked the year of birth. A lot of the John McCarthy references in the press have nothing further to go on, no age, no place of residence, nothing - if it's press articles from a police court (and as far as I know, I don't think these Magistrate Court records are available digitally and on line, the Old Bailey records are the equivalent of a modern Crown Court and so don't include the Magistrates archives) and he just pays a fine, then there are no further leads. Of course it's not just 'John McCarthy' but many other names connected with the case, quite frustrating at times....

There were two John McCarthy's living at 27 Dorset St. in the 1891 census. One, Kelly's landlord, age 42, General Shopkeeper, born in Spitalfields, the other, also aged 42, Grocer, was born in Dieppe, France.

But both appear to be born in 1849 ? so I'm wrong either way !!

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mr Lucky

Well in the 1891 Census there's also John McCarthy from Breezers Hill recorded as 36, so born about 1855 and his wife Rose Mary (nee Brooks and listed simply as Mary)...so no coconut there either I'm afraid...

None of the three John McCarthy's thrown up, nor the one you found, appear to relate to my g g grand uncle either alas (though he too was married to a Mary).

If you're interested in the characters surrounding the MJK case, have you read Neil Shelden's cracking little E-book "Mary Kelly and The Victims of Jack the Ripper: The 125th Anniversary"? It's on Amazon (free Kindle emulator available to download if you haven't a Kindle) at three and a half squids - well worth a look...

All the best

Dave

[Mr Lucky]

Well in the 1891 Census there's also John McCarthy from Breezers Hill recorded as 36, so born about 1855 and his wife Rose Mary (nee Brooks and listed simply as Mary)...so no coconut there either I'm afraid...

None of the three John McCarthy's thrown up, nor the one you found, appear to relate to my g g grand uncle either alas (though he too was married to a Mary).

Hi Cog,

I thought of the Breezer's hill John McCarthy first actually, because of the docks reference, however it was the wrong docks of course.

If you have a year of birth for your ancestor, I'll keep my eyes open when I'm scanning the press.(if you know what trade he was in, that can help, too) even if it matches, it still might not be him of course.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mr Lucky

If you have a year of birth for your ancestor, I'll keep my eyes open when I'm scanning the press.(if you know what trade he was in, that can help, too) even if it matches, it still might not be him of course.

Well even that's a little moot too Mr Lucky...if I may I'll PM you and explain rather than continuing to hijack the thread...Most uncommonly kind of you, all the same

Best wishes

Dave

[GUT]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I can't find it anywhere.

A couple things that have bothered me for years that relate to McCarthy:

1. He is said, by Chris Scott from memory, to have been born in France, and we all know that MJK claims that she visited France with a beau. Who I understand she may have met while working as a prostitute.

2. McCarthy was, I think it is fair to say, involved with some rough characters. Including perhaps some brothel keepers.

3. The outstanding rent owed by Kelly at the time of the murder.

4. Was Mrs Carthy [Now believed to be Mrs McCarthy] related to the landlord?


Has anyone done any research into Mary [as I will call her] having some prior connection to Jack McCarthy prior to moving in to No 13.

I don't want to go down the path if it has already been well trod.

Thanks all.

[Brenda]

.

Hi Gut,
Is your mind wandering in the same direction as mine is? A landlord with a documented temper problem whilst drunk who is owed quite a bit of back rent?



That McCarthy clan is one of my favorite interests peripheral to the murders. They are just interesting people. Some say highly respected. Others say they were thugs. They built their small empire off the earnings of London's most unfortunate people. I love it when new things are found out about them.

[GUT]

G'day Brenda

Is your mind wandering in the same direction as mine is? A landlord with a documented temper problem whilst drunk who is owed quite a bit of back rent?

I'm really not sure, I have for a long time had a thing about the arrears.

If Lewis is right and she was out drinking the night before AND again in the morning whilst owing all that money could McCarthy have snapped who knows.

But if they had some connection via France and/or brothels that might explain his willingness to wait for his money.