John Richardson

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes if death was earlier that's the interpretation, read digest and understand

www.trevormariott.co.uk

Another one that is pathologically averse to admitting error. You said that Biggs hadn’t used the word ‘may.’ I’ll repeat it for you just in case you’ve ‘forgotten.’

“he would have included may or may not in his comment.”

I just showed that he did say it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

wrong to ask him that question you can expect some mad brained explanation

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yeah, like a clock being 5 minutes out.

Who needs Tolkien when I can come up with such outlandish fantasies.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cadoche could not state with certainty that the 'no' came from number 29.

I cannot explain the falling noise against the fence, but by way of clarification, Cadoche stated:

It seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly.

Exactly. What else could it have been if it wasn’t connected to the murder.

Plus, I don’t accept that Cadosch was uncertain about the ‘No.’

[Herlock Sholmes]

He wasn't standing he was on his way to the toilet !!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ill say it again…….how the hell did you become a detective when you can’t read or understand simple evidence. It’s actually quite shocking!

“While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29.”

Yes, I shouldn’t have used the word ‘standing’ because he was moving. But at least I knew which way he was going.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

... we have a situation where a great deal of the stuff that keeps a body warm after death was on open display to the elements, about 16 to 18 feet of it being somewhere over her right shoulder... of COURSE it would get colder quicker.

If he wasn't taking the bloody weather into account for his estimate, he wasn't taking any of the more intricate details into account.

Catherine Eddowes was examined by a doctor about 42 minutes after her murder, and in similar weather conditions.

She too was found with her intestines placed over her right shoulder.

Unlike Chapman, whose body was almost entirely cold, she was still warm and, unlike Chapman, whose body had started to display signs of rigor mortis, Eddowes' displayed none.

These facts suggest that Chapman had been dead for quite a while longer than 42 minutes when she was examined by Phillips.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I don’t see the gap between the ‘no’ and the noise as much of an issue. It’s not a given that the ‘no’ was the beginning of the attack. It could just have been part of a sentence from one of the two where the one word was just emphasised and said slightly louder. But there’s only an issue if we assume that the noise was the body falling against the fence. That noise could have occurred after she was dead. It could have been the killer himself brushing against the fence. Perhaps changing his position to do what he did?

Yes.

Your last point is a good one, provided there is reason to suppose that the murderer might have got that close to the fence after having killed Chapman.

You are suggesting that the murder took place during the interval.

[A P Tomlinson]

Catherine Eddowes was examined by a doctor about 42 minutes after her murder, and in similar weather conditions.

She too was found with her intestines placed over her right shoulder.

Unlike Chapman, whose body was almost entirely cold, she was still warm and, unlike Chapman, whose body had started to display signs of rigor mortis, Eddowes' displayed none.

These facts suggest that Chapman had been dead for quite a while longer than 42 minutes when she was examined by Phillips.

If you were to use case 1 as evidence for case 2 in a medical procedure, you'd be asked to leave the room.
You would be told to measure each individually based on all the circumstances available.

How much of Brown's estimate was based on information supplied by Watkins? By all means quote Brown's methodolgy.
If it was the same as Philips' they were either both using unsafe science, or both using a process that should be re-adopted as it is far more accurate than modern medicine provides with all its "Temperature Measuring Instruments" additional research into the stages of death, and ability to analyse calcium levels and blood deterioration under an electron microscope.

Did Philips know what a cadaveric spasm was? And how as the result of examining one can be mistaken for early onset rigor? (I'll be honest I only learned of that 5 minutes ago from my long suffering wife, who has attened a few sudden deaths herself in a medical capacity, and spent 10 years working a trauma unit and five years running it, who previously informed me that unless any of them were using a reliable rectal thermometre they may as well have been casting runes)
It's that phenomenon that results in muscles tightening in a sort of "Death grip"... Something that would be difficult to differentiate between rigor with even modern methodology.
If Chapman's left arm was the source of the "stiffness" recorded as rigor, it could well have been the result of her grabbing for her attacker at her throat while being choked, and undergoing a cadaveric spasm at time of death, leaving the arm to remain across her left breast when laid supine. They are often associated with deaths attributed to erotic asphyxiation and drowning, and can actually trigger early onset of rigor throughout the rest of the body.
Philips didn't know that.

I'm just continuing to try and show just how unreliable ALL of them were in the methods used for estimating ToD.

If you believe either of them were using accurate reliable methodology, without the assistance of additional information such as "A copper walking by half an hour earlier and saying the body was not there then." that's on you.
But it's bad science, and not accurate at all.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

By coincidence, I was reading about cadaveric spasm last night.

I do not think that in your long reply you specifically addressed these parts of my previous post:


Catherine Eddowes was examined by a doctor about 42 minutes after her murder, and in similar weather conditions.

She too was found with her intestines placed over her right shoulder.

Unlike Chapman, whose body was almost entirely cold, she was still warm ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes.

Your last point is a good one, provided there is reason to suppose that the murderer might have got that close to the fence after having killed Chapman.

You are suggesting that the murder took place during the interval.

Yes. Just hypothetically….If the killer entered the yard while Cadosch was in the outside loo he might have heard the toilet door close alerting him to Cadosch’s presence. Perhaps he asked Annie to keep quiet but Annie spoke (it’s likely that she’d have been ‘caught in the act’ a few times) and so wouldn’t have been as bothered as the killer. And obviously she wouldn’t have thought that she was helping a murderer. She responds and Cadosch picks out the ‘no’ because it was emphasised and perhaps said slightly louder that the rest of the sentence? Cadosch goes back inside and the killer wouldn’t have expected him back any time soon so he kills her and begins the mutilations. While he’s doing it Cadosch makes his second visit. The killer, being unaware of Cadosch’s presence moves closer to the fence (for ease of access) and brushes his shoulder against the fence, which Cadosch’s hears just as he’s going back inside. The killer thinks that he might have had a narrow escape by not being aware of Cadosch’s presence. When he’s finished he wants to get out of there quickly so he decides not to stand at the tap washing himself in case Cadosch or another resident returns. So he leaves.

I can hear your question. Why did he hear the toilet door on the first visit but not the second? He might not have heard it the first time of course but perhaps, if he had, then the killer was too bound up in what he was doing to notice? Or perhaps Cadosch just closed the door more quietly the second time?

[A P Tomlinson]

By coincidence, I was reading about cadaveric spasm last night.

I do not think that in your long reply you specifically addressed these parts of my previous post:


Catherine Eddowes was examined by a doctor about 42 minutes after her murder, and in similar weather conditions.

She too was found with her intestines placed over her right shoulder.

Unlike Chapman, whose body was almost entirely cold, she was still warm ...

Yes.
I said that both doctors were using bad science. One had a copper who the doctor could reference for establishing that no body was there 15 minutes before he discovered it. It's no great feat of scientific endeavour to put time of death within that period.

Brown's assertion that "The crime must have been committed within half an hour, or certainly within forty minutes from the time when I saw the body" is farcical. There is no known medical science in the history of the profession that could offer a ten minute window of certainty like that.
He knew when Watkins had patrolled and was using that as his guide.

His estimate amounts to "I estimate that she died in the window between there not being a body on that spot... and one being found there!"

She died between 1.30 and 1.45

There... I just told you her time of death... without even seeing the body. And within a 15 minute window. It's obvious that death was in situ and not a body dump, and we "know" the body wasn't there 15 minutes before it was discovered.
If I'd discovered the body even I would know to have looked at the eyes to determine whether they were open and if corneal clouding was still happening. Coppers weren't trained to do that.

[A P Tomlinson]

Yes. Just hypothetically….If the killer entered the yard while Cadosch was in the outside loo he might have heard the toilet door close alerting him to Cadosch’s presence. Perhaps he asked Annie to keep quiet but Annie spoke (it’s likely that she’d have been ‘caught in the act’ a few times) and so wouldn’t have been as bothered as the killer. And obviously she wouldn’t have thought that she was helping a murderer. She responds and Cadosch picks out the ‘no’ because it was emphasised and perhaps said slightly louder that the rest of the sentence? Cadosch goes back inside and the killer wouldn’t have expected him back any time soon so he kills her and begins the mutilations. While he’s doing it Cadosch makes his second visit. The killer, being unaware of Cadosch’s presence moves closer to the fence (for ease of access) and brushes his shoulder against the fence, which Cadosch’s hears just as he’s going back inside. The killer thinks that he might have had a narrow escape by not being aware of Cadosch’s presence. When he’s finished he wants to get out of there quickly so he decides not to stand at the tap washing himself in case Cadosch or another resident returns. So he leaves.

I can hear your question. Why did he hear the toilet door on the first visit but not the second? He might not have heard it the first time of course but perhaps, if he had, then the killer was too bound up in what he was doing to notice? Or perhaps Cadosch just closed the door more quietly the second time?

The simpler solution may be as basic as, the killer understood geometry a little better than some people... and if someone on the other side of the fence attempted to peep over, from the position he was at, the safest place to avoid being seen would be at the bottom of the fence, rather than scuttling to try and hide down the cellar steps or somewhere else.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Yes. Just hypothetically….If the killer entered the yard while Cadosch was in the outside loo he might have heard the toilet door close alerting him to Cadosch’s presence. Perhaps he asked Annie to keep quiet but Annie spoke (it’s likely that she’d have been ‘caught in the act’ a few times) and so wouldn’t have been as bothered as the killer. And obviously she wouldn’t have thought that she was helping a murderer. She responds and Cadosch picks out the ‘no’ because it was emphasised and perhaps said slightly louder that the rest of the sentence? Cadosch goes back inside and the killer wouldn’t have expected him back any time soon so he kills her and begins the mutilations. While he’s doing it Cadosch makes his second visit. The killer, being unaware of Cadosch’s presence moves closer to the fence (for ease of access) and brushes his shoulder against the fence, which Cadosch’s hears just as he’s going back inside. The killer thinks that he might have had a narrow escape by not being aware of Cadosch’s presence. When he’s finished he wants to get out of there quickly so he decides not to stand at the tap washing himself in case Cadosch or another resident returns. So he leaves.

I can hear your question. Why did he hear the toilet door on the first visit but not the second? He might not have heard it the first time of course but perhaps, if he had, then the killer was too bound up in what he was doing to notice? Or perhaps Cadosch just closed the door more quietly the second time?

No.

I do not have any questions, except: why exactly would the murderer have placed himself between the body and the fence?

I think this may have been discussed before .

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Yes.

I said that both doctors were using bad science.

That may be so, but the weather conditions were similar, both victims had intestines over the right shoulder, and supposedly had been dead for approximately the same length of time.

Why, then, was one almost completely cold and the other still warm?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The simpler solution may be as basic as, the killer understood geometry a little better than some people... and if someone on the other side of the fence attempted to peep over, from the position he was at, the safest place to avoid being seen would be at the bottom of the fence, rather than scuttling to try and hide down the cellar steps or somewhere else.

I suppose that would be your answer to my # 5487.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No.

I do not have any questions, except: why exactly would the murderer have placed himself between the body and the fence?

I think this may have been discussed before .

I would suggest that he put his whole body between Annie and the fence but perhaps he brushed his right shoulder or arm against it.