A closer look at Eagle and Lave

[Herlock Sholmes]

They also arrived at that spot while Brown was spending 3 or 4 minutes in the chandler's shop. They heard nothing suspicious, nor did they see a man apparently running after another man along Fairclough St.

Were they interviewed?

The two men ran along Fairclough Street after 1.00.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Then he could not have returned at 12:30, or even 12:35, because Smith observed the victim alive and well at 12:35 or later.

I know. What I'm saying is that Eagle might not have looked at a clock for a good while given he was walking from about 11.45am and it's a fair period of time to give an estimate, and even the steward's wife who said about 20 minutes to 1 is open to error because 20 minutes, 15 minutes, half an hour isn't an easy estimate when you're just getting on with your night and have no reason to take notice of time.

It could quite easily have been earlier than 12.35 or later.

You're left with a judgment call. Personally, I would err on the side of Liz and Parcelman having been stood talking for at least a few minutes before PC Smith passed by, and that makes it more likely that Eagle returned after Liz and Parcelman disappeared and I'd say he walked past Liz's body. That makes most sense to me, but of course it could be wide of the mark.

Either way, there's nothing out of the ordinary in Eagle not seeing Liz.

[Lewis C]

Brown: “On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.“

So they were standing around the corner in Fairclough Street out of sight to anyone in Berner Street.

While I agree that Eagle might not have seen, noticed, and remembered Stride & Parcel Man even if they were in the area when he was, I don't know if the above quote helps us here. Even if Brown really did see Stride, I'm figuring Brown left his home about 5 minutes after Eagle returned to the club, and I don't think that Brown said that he saw Stride until he was returning home. So Stride might not have been at that location when Eagle returned home, even if Brown was right about seeing Stride.

[Lewis C]

You may have to move Eagle back in time, but then how many fairly precise movements in time are you going to allow yourself, to fit everything in without unwanted clashes? Most of these times are estimates, so what if instead of moving Schwartz and Eagle back, and Mortimer forward (of hearing Smith), you instead did the opposite?



As the "measured, heavy tramp" report contains no attempt at quoting Mortimer, we cannot be sure what she really said on that occasion. However, are we in a position to question what she heard through the front of the house, that night? Surely, she would be accustomed to the sounds of the neighbourhood. Whatever the case, she seems to have been quite capable of hearing sounds out on the street, when the front door was closed.

When I first read this, I thought that you meant, what if we move Mortimer, Eagle and Schwartz so that Eagle returned and Schwartz passed after Mortimer had gone back inside, but now I think that maybe you were talking about a smaller adjustment than that. Perhaps you could adjust my timeline to show exactly what you mean.

There are a lot of things alleged to have happened in a small amount of time. If we assume all of it really happened, it reminds me a play in which in which people enter the stage, do their thing, and exit the stage, all of it very quickly, one after the other.

I'm sure that Mortimer could hear the sounds of the street, but maybe sometimes she misjudged what the sounds were.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

When I first read this, I thought that you meant, what if we move Mortimer, Eagle and Schwartz so that Eagle returned and Schwartz passed after Mortimer had gone back inside, but now I think that maybe you were talking about a smaller adjustment than that. Perhaps you could adjust my timeline to show exactly what you mean.

What I was getting at is simply that an estimate of 12:40 by Eagle, for example, could have actually been 12:35, but it could also have actually been 12:45. The 'margin-of-error' is both a plus and minus value and is really just another estimate. Estimates of the time can't be seen as pieces on a chessboard, to be moved around until some predetermined outcome is achieved.

Rather than trying to weave Schwartz & co. in, in a manner that avoids any unwanted 'collisions', I would just accept that a collision is probably inevitable. In that case, we could have Eagle witnessing Stride and Parcelman, and forgetting about it (as you mentioned in #33), or not wanting to admit to it, or just make Eagle the broad-shouldered man. The last option would obviously raise more questions than it answers, but at least it brings Schwartz's first man into the real world.

There are a lot of things alleged to have happened in a small amount of time. If we assume all of it really happened, it reminds me a play in which in which people enter the stage, do their thing, and exit the stage, all of it very quickly, one after the other.

It has the same effect on me, but of course this is not a play, so shall we say that Stride was standing at the gateway for about 3 minutes before Schwartz entered Berner St, and a further 3 minutes after picking herself up and dusting herself off, before JtR entered Berner St?

Another period that seems almost impossibly busy, from a timeline point-of-view, is the period from the arrival of Diemschitz to the arrival of Lamb and his colleague. Both Diemschitz and Smith claimed to be at the top of Berner St at 1am. What happens if we 'split the difference' and have the steward arrive at about 12:55? Now consider Mortimer in your #21 timeline ...

12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door.

Moving Louis back just 5 minutes causes things to get real interesting.

I'm sure that Mortimer could hear the sounds of the street, but maybe sometimes she misjudged what the sounds were.

The proximity of Schwartz to the BS man would suggest that the 'measured, heavy tramp' belonged to neither.

[Lewis C]

What I was getting at is simply that an estimate of 12:40 by Eagle, for example, could have actually been 12:35, but it could also have actually been 12:45. The 'margin-of-error' is both a plus and minus value and is really just another estimate. Estimates of the time can't be seen as pieces on a chessboard, to be moved around until some predetermined outcome is achieved.

Rather than trying to weave Schwartz & co. in, in a manner that avoids any unwanted 'collisions', I would just accept that a collision is probably inevitable. In that case, we could have Eagle witnessing Stride and Parcelman, and forgetting about it (as you mentioned in #33), or not wanting to admit to it, or just make Eagle the broad-shouldered man. The last option would obviously raise more questions than it answers, but at least it brings Schwartz's first man into the real world.



It has the same effect on me, but of course this is not a play, so shall we say that Stride was standing at the gateway for about 3 minutes before Schwartz entered Berner St, and a further 3 minutes after picking herself up and dusting herself off, before JtR entered Berner St?

Another period that seems almost impossibly busy, from a timeline point-of-view, is the period from the arrival of Diemschitz to the arrival of Lamb and his colleague. Both Diemschitz and Smith claimed to be at the top of Berner St at 1am. What happens if we 'split the difference' and have the steward arrive at about 12:55? Now consider Mortimer in your #21 timeline ...

12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door.

Moving Louis back just 5 minutes causes things to get real interesting.



The proximity of Schwartz to the BS man would suggest that the 'measured, heavy tramp' belonged to neither.

On your first point, I think I follow you now. You weren't saying that the timeline works better if Mortimer is moved earlier and Eagle and Schwartz are moved later. You're saying that working with margins of error allows for those possibilities.

The way that I'm approaching this is to see if there's a way that everything can fit together. Could it all have happened? I would grant that just because it's possible for all of it to fit together doesn't mean that everything that is claimed to have happened really did happen.

Maybe it is right to allow 2 or 3 minutes for Stride to stand at the gateway before Schwartz entered Berner Street. Certainly, it seems reasonable to expect that there should be at least that much slack SOMEWHERE in the timeline. I don't think we have to figure 3 minutes after Stride gets back up for JtR to enter Berner Street, because it could be that BS Man or Pipe Man killed her, in which case JtR is already there. It could also be that someone else was already there that we don't know about.

One thing about moving Louis back 5 minutes is that it's safe to assume that Louis wouldn't have come through while Mortimer was at her door. Also, Mortimer thought she heard a pony and cart pass shortly after she closed her door. So while there's a lot of doubt about other things, I think that Louis passing after Mortimer went back inside is a pretty safe bet.

A question that's been around during the discussion but maybe hasn't been fully explored is, what events could have overlapped and which ones couldn't have? To start with Schwartz and BS Man can't have overlapped with anything; they would have been noticed by any of the other players if they had happened at the same time. According to Tom Wescott, Brown and the couple he saw could have happened at the same time that Mortimer was at her door because they were located where she wouldn't or might not have seen them, but she would have seen Smith, Schwartz & Co., Eagle and Lave if they had been in the area at that time. As mentioned, I think that Smith and Eagle can overlap.

[Wickerman]

...According to Tom Wescott, Brown and the couple he saw could have happened at the same time that Mortimer was at her door because they were located where she wouldn't or might not have seen them, but she would have seen Smith, Schwartz & Co., Eagle and Lave if they had been in the area at that time. As mentioned, I think that Smith and Eagle can overlap.

Mortimer mentions a couple on the Board School corner. Her door was the third up from the club, 100 ft away from the corner of the Board School.
I can hear people talking 100 ft from my door, it's not that far, and sound carries further at night, though I don't know if there was a lamp on that corner.

[Wickerman]

Were they interviewed?

Hi Mike.
It seems like it, there is a report in Evening News, 1 Oct.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

It's actually 20 yds from the body.

The two men ran along Fairclough Street after 1.00.

Brown says he heard shouting from people moving towards Grove St. about 15 minutes after he came back from the corner shop, so like you say, after 1:00 am.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

On your first point, I think I follow you now. You weren't saying that the timeline works better if Mortimer is moved earlier and Eagle and Schwartz are moved later. You're saying that working with margins of error allows for those possibilities.

Yes, but also that time estimates aren't a license to move characters around within these 'margins of error', having begun with a predetermined outcome (fitting everything in without unwanted collisions), and then declaring that the arrived at timeline is compatible with no unwanted sightings or hearings.

The way that I'm approaching this is to see if there's a way that everything can fit together. Could it all have happened? I would grant that just because it's possible for all of it to fit together doesn't mean that everything that is claimed to have happened really did happen.

I agree, and "possible for all of it to fit together" is equivalent to saying; "I know if all these things happened according to my timeline, no one on those streets on that night would have seen or heard anything I don't want them to have seen or heard."

Maybe it is right to allow 2 or 3 minutes for Stride to stand at the gateway before Schwartz entered Berner Street. Certainly, it seems reasonable to expect that there should be at least that much slack SOMEWHERE in the timeline. I don't think we have to figure 3 minutes after Stride gets back up for JtR to enter Berner Street, because it could be that BS Man or Pipe Man killed her, in which case JtR is already there. It could also be that someone else was already there that we don't know about.

If Schwartz claimed that Stride was standing in the gateway as he approached, we cannot conveniently suppose that she arrived at that point the second before he first sees her. On the other hand, we can't put a figure on it either. So, it's an indeterminate period, but those who are confident in the authenticity of Schwartz's story, should be willing to add some slack into that part of the timeline, and not just try to make Schwartz and co. the smallest target they can conceive.

Adding a further period of standing in the gateway after the BS assault, or not, would depend on supposing that BS man was a skilled killer, regardless of his behaviour on the street, or that he leaves the scene, only for another man to appear from either street or yard.

One thing about moving Louis back 5 minutes is that it's safe to assume that Louis wouldn't have come through while Mortimer was at her door. Also, Mortimer thought she heard a pony and cart pass shortly after she closed her door. So while there's a lot of doubt about other things, I think that Louis passing after Mortimer went back inside is a pretty safe bet.

I don't think Mortimer saw the cart, either. What I was alluding to is the possibility that her locking the front door and Diemschitz turning into Berner St, were very close in time. The other possibility for an arrival of Diemschitz a few minutes before 1am, is that Mortimer has locked up, say 4 or 5 minutes earlier. That places her at her doorstep in the 12:45 period, with obvious implications for personal timelines.

A question that's been around during the discussion but maybe hasn't been fully explored is, what events could have overlapped and which ones couldn't have? To start with Schwartz and BS Man can't have overlapped with anything; they would have been noticed by any of the other players if they had happened at the same time. According to Tom Wescott, Brown and the couple he saw could have happened at the same time that Mortimer was at her door because they were located where she wouldn't or might not have seen them, but she would have seen Smith, Schwartz & Co., Eagle and Lave if they had been in the area at that time. As mentioned, I think that Smith and Eagle can overlap.

Presumably you don't like the idea of Eagle being the BS man, first suggested by Tom Wescott. Not BS man the murderer, by the way, just the assaulter who is not happy with Stride standing in the gateway. Otherwise, yes, Schwartz and co. cannot overlap with anything, and not forgetting the indeterminate length of time Stride stands at the gates, seemingly alone.

There was a debate in another thread years ago, about the identity of the board school couple and the possibility that Mortimer had been aware of their presence. What I think matters more is that she seems to have claimed that the street had been very quiet, but not completely deserted. In that case, she may well have seen people like Eagle, Lave and Charles Letchford, but not Stride and Parcelman.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Mortimer mentions a couple on the Board School corner. Her door was the third up from the club, 100 ft away from the corner of the Board School.
I can hear people talking 100 ft from my door, it's not that far, and sound carries further at night, though I don't know if there was a lamp on that corner.

Regarding the board school corner ...

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

If that crossing had been a diagonal one, how close would Schwartz then be to the corner?

... then Schwartz walked away, ...

Has he reached Fairclough St already, at this point?

... but finding that he was followed by the second man ...

It was not immediately apparent that the second man was following, but surely by the time it was, Schwartz would have at least reached Fairclough St.

... he ran so far as the railway arch ...

Which one? Well, did Schwartz continue down Berner St, or turn East into Fairclough St?

Crossing Berner St when he did, could well tell us the answer. So, if the answer is Fairclough St, then let's at least acknowledge the coincidence of ...

FM: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

... who just happened to live near the Christian St railway arch.

I believe in the Schwartz- story and the chances are pretty good that BS Man was the killer of Stride.

But who was Israel Schwartz?

"This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line"

Could he have been a 22-year-old, Russian born cigarette maker?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Mike.
It seems like it, there is a report in Evening News, 1 Oct.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

It's actually 20 yds from the body.



Brown says he heard shouting from people moving towards Grove St. about 15 minutes after he came back from the corner shop, so like you say, after 1:00 am.

Hi Wick,

Thanks for that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For discussions sake, and this has probably already been suggested (possibly by Andrew?), let’s say that the incident has already occurred at Berner Street is empty. Brown goes to the shop and sees no one. Spooner and his girlfriend walk along Berner Street, turn into Fairclough Street and stand talking on the corner. Brown returns and sees them and mistakenly believes that this was Stride due to a similarity of appearance. After he passes they walk along to the corner of Christian Street by The Beehive where they again stand talking. Diemschitz doesn’t see them as he passes up to Grove Street (smooching in a doorway perhaps?) but sees them when he returns.

Could the couples “bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found” have actually been the corner of Christian and Fairclough Streets? So the fact that they said that they had been there for ‘about 20 minutes’ wouldn’t have been far off.

Question - If this couple was Spooner and his girlfriend then why didn’t they mention Spooner’s later actions in the newspaper interview? Maybe he did, the interview isn’t a direct quote so perhaps they were just considering events close to the time of the Schwartz incident?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For discussions sake, and this has probably already been suggested (possibly by Andrew?), let’s say that the incident has already occurred at Berner Street is empty. Brown goes to the shop and sees no one. Spooner and his girlfriend walk along Berner Street, turn into Fairclough Street and stand talking on the corner. Brown returns and sees them and mistakenly believes that this was Stride due to a similarity of appearance. After he passes they walk along to the corner of Christian Street by The Beehive where they again stand talking. Diemschitz doesn’t see them as he passes up to Grove Street (smooching in a doorway perhaps?) but sees them when he returns.

I didn't suggest this, but I did suggest that Spooner's girlfriend didn't exist, because there is no mention of her once Spooner hastens to Berner St, and from then on Spooner is only ever quoted referring to "I" and not "we".

What you're suggesting here is going to have to consider where Spooner had previously been ...

We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

Ironically, Stride seems to have been in a pub on Settle's St, that night.

Could the couples “bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found” have actually been the corner of Christian and Fairclough Streets? So the fact that they said that they had been there for ‘about 20 minutes’ wouldn’t have been far off.

I take "not fifty yards" to mean "less than, but comparable to fifty yards". So, more than 50 feet but less than 50 yards.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I didn't suggest this, but I did suggest that Spooner's girlfriend didn't exist, because there is no mention of her once Spooner hastens to Berner St, and from then on Spooner is only ever quoted referring to "I" and not "we".

What you're suggesting here is going to have to consider where Spooner had previously been ...

We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

Ironically, Stride seems to have been in a pub on Settle's St, that night.



I take "not fifty yards" to mean "less than, but comparable to fifty yards". So, more than 50 feet but less than 50 yards.

Thanks for that. I could only recall the Commercial Road part but if they walked down Christian Street it’s clearly a non-starter.

[S.Brett]

Regarding the board school corner ...

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

If that crossing had been a diagonal one, how close would Schwartz then be to the corner?

... then Schwartz walked away, ...

Has he reached Fairclough St already, at this point?

... but finding that he was followed by the second man ...

It was not immediately apparent that the second man was following, but surely by the time it was, Schwartz would have at least reached Fairclough St.

... he ran so far as the railway arch ...

Which one? Well, did Schwartz continue down Berner St, or turn East into Fairclough St?

Crossing Berner St when he did, could well tell us the answer. So, if the answer is Fairclough St, then let's at least acknowledge the coincidence of ...

FM: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

... who just happened to live near the Christian St railway arch.


Could he have been a 22-year-old, Russian born cigarette maker?

Did you know? A tailor, Israel Goldstein (45, born in Warsaw/Poland) was living at 40 Berner Street in 1891 (census).