A closer look at Eagle and Lave

[NotBlamedForNothing]

One thing to be said about Brown's sighting being after Schwartz' is that in most of the sources, Brown gave 12:45 as the time that he left his house, and said that he went to get dinner, and then saw Stride on his way back to his house, which would be about 12:50. Also, Brown being later fits better with Mortimer being at her door 12:45-12:55, because she might not have seen Brown, but wouldn't have missed Schwartz and BS man if she'd been at her door when that happened. So you could just move Schwartz a minute or 2 earlier and I think it fits with Mortimer and Brown.

Supposing Brown saw the young couple and not Stride with a man, then the couple's "about 20 minutes" estimate would have them arriving at the corner by about 12:45, and as early as 12:40. That would mean Brown left home somewhat earlier than he supposed.

However, taking your suggestion of moving Schwartz back a bit, then obviously we are getting perilously close to the return of Eagle to the club, and the presence of Lave in the yard and on the street. We also have to consider the hearing of the "measured, heavy tramp" of a policeman's boots.

We should also consider the length of time Stride had supposedly been standing in the gateway, and not just the elapsed time of the alleged assault. How could Eagle have missed seeing her, apparently waiting for something?

Fitting everything in is difficult, if not impossible. As an example, if PC Smith's timings are used, his beat time would have him at the top of Berner St at 1am, which is what he said was the case. This pushes Mortimer's ~10 minutes back in time, else she cannot have missed seeing a man leave the yard. Pushing Mortimer back to say, 12:40-50, spells trouble for Schwartz.

[Lewis C]

Supposing Brown saw the young couple and not Stride with a man, then the couple's "about 20 minutes" estimate would have them arriving at the corner by about 12:45, and as early as 12:40. That would mean Brown left home somewhat earlier than he supposed.

However, taking your suggestion of moving Schwartz back a bit, then obviously we are getting perilously close to the return of Eagle to the club, and the presence of Lave in the yard and on the street. We also have to consider the hearing of the "measured, heavy tramp" of a policeman's boots.

We should also consider the length of time Stride had supposedly been standing in the gateway, and not just the elapsed time of the alleged assault. How could Eagle have missed seeing her, apparently waiting for something?

Fitting everything in is difficult, if not impossible. As an example, if PC Smith's timings are used, his beat time would have him at the top of Berner St at 1am, which is what he said was the case. This pushes Mortimer's ~10 minutes back in time, else she cannot have missed seeing a man leave the yard. Pushing Mortimer back to say, 12:40-50, spells trouble for Schwartz.

I think that what you're implying in the 1st paragraph is that we should figure that if it was the young couple that Brown saw, they would have arrived sometime after he passed their location on his way to get dinner, but before he came back outside. I agree that that's most likely the case regardless of who the couple was, though maybe there's an outside chance that they were there before that and Brown just didn't notice them. So we could estimate that Brown left his house at 12:43 or 12:44, and the couple arrived there at 12:45 or 12:46.

Fitting everything in requires accepting that any accepted time might be off by a few minutes, but it's still not easy. I've thought that the likely order is that PC Smith passed through, then Schwartz, then Mortimer went to her door. The problem I see isn't Eagle missing Stride, because he could have been back inside before she stood at the gateway. I'm more concerned about the interlude between Smith seeing Stride with parcelman and Stride being at the gateway. Between the time that Smith and Schwartz passed through, Stride had to have parted with parcel man, gone to the gateway and been at the doorway before Schwartz was able to see her. It seems like for it to work, Stride and parcelman would have had to have parted immediately after Smith no longer saw them, and Stride had to have been at the gateway for less than a minute before BS man confronted her.

[Wickerman]

... I'm more concerned about the interlude between Smith seeing Stride with parcelman and Stride being at the gateway. Between the time that Smith and Schwartz passed through, Stride had to have parted with parcel man, gone to the gateway and been at the doorway before Schwartz was able to see her. It seems like for it to work, Stride and parcelman would have had to have parted immediately after Smith no longer saw them, and Stride had to have been at the gateway for less than a minute before BS man confronted her.

Isn't there a potential catch-22 here, in these Victorian days of etiquette.
If you recall, Eagle had the manners to escort his lady home, before continuing his nights entertainment.

Now, with Stride, we are suggesting her date just walks away and leaves the woman alone in this street where, by all accounts she was a stranger.
In response, some will argue she was a streetwalker, her client just left her, but if so, how was she able to service her client?
Then there are others who will argue Stride made an extra-special effort to attend to her looks that night - she was not on-the-game this evening. If that was the case then why does her date, very rudely leave her in the middle of this dark street, well because he was not her date, he was her client....etc...etc.

Which is it, was she on a date - so why did he leave her?
Or, was she soliciting - so how did she service the client?

[Lewis C]

Isn't there a potential catch-22 here, in these Victorian days of etiquette.
If you recall, Eagle had the manners to escort his lady home, before continuing his nights entertainment.

Now, with Stride, we are suggesting her date just walks away and leaves the woman alone in this street where, by all accounts she was a stranger.
In response, some will argue she was a streetwalker, her client just left her, but if so, how was she able to service her client?
Then there are others who will argue Stride made an extra-special effort to attend to her looks that night - she was not on-the-game this evening. If that was the case then why does her date, very rudely leave her in the middle of this dark street, well because he was not her date, he was her client....etc...etc.

Which is it, was she on a date - so why did he leave her?
Or, was she soliciting - so how did she service the client?

I think she was soliciting, but I'm far from certain about that.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think that what you're implying in the 1st paragraph is that we should figure that if it was the young couple that Brown saw, they would have arrived sometime after he passed their location on his way to get dinner, but before he came back outside. I agree that that's most likely the case regardless of who the couple was, though maybe there's an outside chance that they were there before that and Brown just didn't notice them. So we could estimate that Brown left his house at 12:43 or 12:44, and the couple arrived there at 12:45 or 12:46.

We have to account for Brown's time inside the shop.

Brown: On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.

So, if Brown instead leaves home at about 12:40, the couple are at the corner by 12:45, and possibly a few minutes earlier (which would agree with their own estimate). It would seem that any Schwartz-like incident has to go back to at least 12:40. Hence this thread ...

Eagle: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

If you don't want Eagle to be the BS man, then you have to push Eagle or Schwartz back in time from ~12:40. Then it's a question of not having either collide with Smith.

Fitting everything in requires accepting that any accepted time might be off by a few minutes, but it's still not easy. I've thought that the likely order is that PC Smith passed through, then Schwartz, then Mortimer went to her door. The problem I see isn't Eagle missing Stride, because he could have been back inside before she stood at the gateway. I'm more concerned about the interlude between Smith seeing Stride with parcelman and Stride being at the gateway. Between the time that Smith and Schwartz passed through, Stride had to have parted with parcel man, gone to the gateway and been at the doorway before Schwartz was able to see her. It seems like for it to work, Stride and parcelman would have had to have parted immediately after Smith no longer saw them, and Stride had to have been at the gateway for less than a minute before BS man confronted her.

When thinking about the Berner St timeline, an important factor is PC Smith's estimate of his beat's timespan range - 25 to 30 minutes. One approach is to make an estimate of Smith's arrival at the yard, and then subtract 27.5 minutes, for an approximate time when seeing Stride and Parcelman. For example, 1:05 minus 27:30, takes us back to about 12:37:30. Pushing Smith's arrival out to 1:10, gives a time between 12:40 and 12:45, which is coincident with this report, seemingly regarding Fanny Mortimer ...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so.

Given all the above, what approximate times do you suggest for Smith, Eagle, Schwartz and Mortimer?

[Lewis C]

We have to account for Brown's time inside the shop.

Brown: On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.

So, if Brown instead leaves home at about 12:40, the couple are at the corner by 12:45, and possibly a few minutes earlier (which would agree with their own estimate). It would seem that any Schwartz-like incident has to go back to at least 12:40. Hence this thread ...

Eagle: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

If you don't want Eagle to be the BS man, then you have to push Eagle or Schwartz back in time from ~12:40. Then it's a question of not having either collide with Smith.



When thinking about the Berner St timeline, an important factor is PC Smith's estimate of his beat's timespan range - 25 to 30 minutes. One approach is to make an estimate of Smith's arrival at the yard, and then subtract 27.5 minutes, for an approximate time when seeing Stride and Parcelman. For example, 1:05 minus 27:30, takes us back to about 12:37:30. Pushing Smith's arrival out to 1:10, gives a time between 12:40 and 12:45, which is coincident with this report, seemingly regarding Fanny Mortimer ...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so.

Given all the above, what approximate times do you suggest for Smith, Eagle, Schwartz and Mortimer?

I think that I did account for Brown's time inside the shop. I don't see any reason why Brown leaving his home needed to happen any earlier than 12:43.

I think that it's possible that Eagle was BS man, but I'd estimate that there's less than a 50% chance of that, so I agree the timeline should be constructed in a way that doesn't require that to be the case. Schwartz must not collide with Smith, but I don't see the problem with Eagle colliding with Smith.

With my above assumptions, I'll take a stab at a timeline:

12:37/38 - Smith passes through and sees Stride with Parcel Man.
12:38/39 - Eagle returns to the club.
12:41/43 - Schwartz & BS Man
12:43/44 - Brown leaves his home.
12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door. Maybe what she thought was the policeman before she came to her door was really Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think that I did account for Brown's time inside the shop. I don't see any reason why Brown leaving his home needed to happen any earlier than 12:43.

Okay, fair enough.

I think that it's possible that Eagle was BS man, but I'd estimate that there's less than a 50% chance of that, so I agree the timeline should be constructed in a way that doesn't require that to be the case. Schwartz must not collide with Smith, but I don't see the problem with Eagle colliding with Smith.

With my above assumptions, I'll take a stab at a timeline:

12:37/38 - Smith passes through and sees Stride with Parcel Man.
12:38/39 - Eagle returns to the club.
12:41/43 - Schwartz & BS Man
12:43/44 - Brown leaves his home.
12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door. Maybe what she thought was the policeman before she came to her door was really Schwartz.

The obvious question here; why didn't Eagle see either Stride or Parcelman? Especially Stride, who you have close to the gates at 12:38, and at the gates by 12:41. How could Eagle arrive at the club in the interim, try the front door and then carefully make his way to the side door, and not see her?

For the Schwartz story to work, is it necessary for Mortimer to have been confused about whose boots she was hearing?

[Lewis C]

Okay, fair enough.



The obvious question here; why didn't Eagle see either Stride or Parcelman? Especially Stride, who you have close to the gates at 12:38, and at the gates by 12:41. How could Eagle arrive at the club in the interim, try the front door and then carefully make his way to the side door, and not see her?

For the Schwartz story to work, is it necessary for Mortimer to have been confused about whose boots she was hearing?

I haven't fully worked out everyone's location, but it seems like the 1st question might be asked with any timeline, since Stride seems to have been in the area the whole time. Eagle would have had to have been inside before Stride was at the gate. If he was, then he may have just not noticed her.

I think Mortimer being mistaken about the policeman's boots is the most likely explanation, but another possibility is that she didn't get to the door as quickly after hearing the boots as what her statement would lead us to believe. There may be other possibilities as well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why must Eagle have seen Stride and Parcelman?

[Lewis C]

Why must Eagle have seen Stride and Parcelman?

I'm not convinced that he did. And even if he did, maybe he didn't especially notice them or remember them.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The obvious question here; why didn't Eagle see either Stride or Parcelman?

There is nothing special about Eagle not seeing Liz and Parcelman.

Eagle tells us that he left the club at 11.45am and returned at 12.35am. We have no indication of how he calculated 12.35am. Given he had been walking, there's a chance he hadn't seen a clock in that period and it was simply an estimate, and quite clearly without reference to a clock it's open to being out.

Eagle also tells us that it was too dark to see if anybody was lying there as he walked through the entrance to the yard.

He may well have returned at say 12.40am and walked past Liz's body or returned at 12.30am.

Given he made no mention of seeing a couple, the likelihood is that he returned after Liz had been murdered and walked past her body.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm not convinced that he did. And even if he did, maybe he didn't especially notice them or remember them.

Brown: “On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.“

So they were standing around the corner in Fairclough Street out of sight to anyone in Berner Street.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I haven't fully worked out everyone's location, but it seems like the 1st question might be asked with any timeline, since Stride seems to have been in the area the whole time. Eagle would have had to have been inside before Stride was at the gate. If he was, then he may have just not noticed her.

You may have to move Eagle back in time, but then how many fairly precise movements in time are you going to allow yourself, to fit everything in without unwanted clashes? Most of these times are estimates, so what if instead of moving Schwartz and Eagle back, and Mortimer forward (of hearing Smith), you instead did the opposite?

I think Mortimer being mistaken about the policeman's boots is the most likely explanation, but another possibility is that she didn't get to the door as quickly after hearing the boots as what her statement would lead us to believe. There may be other possibilities as well.

As the "measured, heavy tramp" report contains no attempt at quoting Mortimer, we cannot be sure what she really said on that occasion. However, are we in a position to question what she heard through the front of the house, that night? Surely, she would be accustomed to the sounds of the neighbourhood. Whatever the case, she seems to have been quite capable of hearing sounds out on the street, when the front door was closed.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There is nothing special about Eagle not seeing Liz and Parcelman.

Well, there is given LC's timeline in #21, which is what I was referring to.

Eagle tells us that he left the club at 11.45am and returned at 12.35am. We have no indication of how he calculated 12.35am. Given he had been walking, there's a chance he hadn't seen a clock in that period and it was simply an estimate, and quite clearly without reference to a clock it's open to being out.

Eagle also tells us that it was too dark to see if anybody was lying there as he walked through the entrance to the yard.

He may well have returned at say 12.40am and walked past Liz's body or returned at 12.30am.

Most press reports have Eagle returning at about 12:40, and the steward's wife seems to have agreed with that estimate ...

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard.

So, close to 12:40 seems a solid bet, which also seems about right for PC Smith.

Given he made no mention of seeing a couple, the likelihood is that he returned after Liz had been murdered and walked past her body.

Then he could not have returned at 12:30, or even 12:35, because Smith observed the victim alive and well at 12:35 or later.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Brown: “On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.“

So they were standing around the corner in Fairclough Street out of sight to anyone in Berner Street.

They also arrived at that spot while Brown was spending 3 or 4 minutes in the chandler's shop. They heard nothing suspicious, nor did they see a man apparently running after another man along Fairclough St.