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At about 12:45am, September 30, Israel Schwartz claimed to see a man stop at the gates of Dutfield's Yard, and speak to a woman who Schwartz later identified as the murder victim.
Schwartz witnessed the man assault the woman, and then crossed the road, and at that point he noticed another man who was lighting a pipe. Moments later he sensed he was being followed by this man, and Schwartz began to run. The man with a pipe ran in his direction. Schwartz ran as far as one of the railway arches, but the man did not follow so far.
At about 12:40, Morris Eagle returned to the Berner street club, having walked his lady friend home. He told the coroner:
I am a traveler and a member of the Socialist club. I was at the club on Saturday night, and did not leave till after the discussion. I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.
At a similar time, another member of the club named Joseph Lave, told the press the following:
I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at that time, and I noticed nothing wrong.
Given a discovery time of about 1am, this places Lave out on the street at 12:45, and possibly beyond.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the following notion:
Who else but Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, could Israel Schwartz have effectively been talking about, when referring to the first and second man in his statement?
To suppose otherwise, while still regarding Schwartz's story as true, is to suppose that about 5 minutes after Eagle's return, the situation with Eagle and Lave was replicated. Once again a man reached the gateway, and once again a man was out on the street, seemingly going nowhere in particular. It's just that this time, the victim happened to be standing in the gateway, unknown to anyone inside the club. What are the chances? Combine this with the rather astonishing situation of no one outside the incident claiming to have seen or heard anything that would support Schwartz's claims, and it would be fair to ask; who was lying - Schwartz, or someone(s) else?
Swanson: Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.
But they might have been, and it would hardly be a stretch to suppose that Eagle and Lave were known to each other.
According to a press report:
Morris Eagle, one of the members of the club, left Berner street about 12 o'clock, and after taking his sweetheart home returned to the club at about twenty minutes to one with the intention of having supper. He walked up the yard and entered the club by the side entrance but neither saw nor heard anything to make him suspect foul play was going on. Of course he might have passed the body in the darkness, but the probability is that he would have stumbled over it if the murder had been committed before that time.
At the inquest, he said:
Coroner: Can you say if deceased was lying there when you went in?
Eagle: It was rather dark and I cannot say for certain if anything was there or not. I do not remember whether I met any one in Berner-street when I returned to the yard, neither do I remember seeing any one in the yard.
According to Schwartz, the second man had a clay pipe in his hand. According to the same press report as above:
Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air, and for five minutes or more he strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.
So when did Liz Stride arrive at the gateway, I wonder?
What is interesting about Lave, is that his timing, location, and behaviour, is a close match to Pipeman, who also seems to be going nowhere in particular, when first spotted by Schwartz. With the exception of the pipe, that is. Yet it does not seem from my reading of older and newer Berner street threads, that anyone has ever wondered out loud; could Joseph Lave have been Pipeman? Unfortunately we don't have a physical description for Lave. The situation is the same for Eagle, as far as I know. Except that in Eagle's case, we do have an artists sketch to compare to Schwartz's description.
first man, who threw the woman down: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.
Casting Eagle as the broad-shouldered man, and Lave as Pipeman, in my opinion helps in understanding Wess's comments to the Echo journalist:
In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.
He says the man who gave chase is not a member of the club, but he cannot remember the man's name. Convenient, much? What is more fundamental than that question, is how Wess knows of the Schwartz incident at all. The 'grapevine' theory, which is not supported by any evidence, relies on getting information about the incident into the club, past the police who guard the entrances, and past the paywall set up by Wess himself. It also has to supply the name of the man who have chase. Astonishingly, Wess seems to have known more about Pipeman, than the police did - even days later.
The 'switch' must also be considered. The man pursued was perceived as being the murderer, by unidentified members of the public. Obviously that was not how Schwartz described the same event. It seems Wess wanted to point the finger at the pursued man. Why?
In contrast to the 'grapevine' or 'Chinese whispers' theory, the theory here is that Eagle, Lave, and Wess tried to hide what had really gone on, on the street, and then Schwartz arrived at Leman street station to give his account. In this theory, Schwartz has no connection with the club, and has no idea who he had seen on the street. Just to be clear, what did go on, on the street, is not part of the theory beyond what Schwartz claimed to have witnessed. So Eagle may have tossed Stride out of the yard, called out to Lave who chases away Schwartz, and then the two men go back into the club. Stride is still alive at this point, or she may not be - that is not part of the theory.
I also have another theory, again with Eagle as BS man, and Lave as Pipeman, but with Schwartz known to the club - actually a member. This is a more radical and so less likely theory. In this theory, the man pursued never actually comes forward to give a statement. He is chased away and runs off into the darkness, and his identity is now lost to history. Israel Schwartz is a man who pretends to be the man pursued. In his somewhat comical efforts to give himself an orthodox Jewish appearance, he overdoes things and ends up looking to the lads at Leman street, like someone in the theatrical line.
There is quite a lot more I could add on this subject, but the post would get too long. So just in point form for now:
* From what direction did Eagle enter Berner street?
* Whose boots were responsible for the 'measured, heavy tramp'?
* Could Eagle have been responsible for the call of 'Lipski'?
* Who is Joseph Lave?
* Where exactly did Lave go, after having been on the street?
* Who and what time did James Brown see a couple talking, by the board school?
* Who, where and when was the couple who spoke to the press, and possibly also to Fanny Mortimer?
* What happened immediately after the discovery?
* Who went for police, in what order, and in what directions did they go?
* What did the police make of Wess's claims, as described in the Echo report?
There is of course, one very big question that the Eagle and Lave were the men seen by Schwartz theory, leaves unanswered. Did Eagle kill Stride? If yes, why? If not, who did?
Schwartz witnessed the man assault the woman, and then crossed the road, and at that point he noticed another man who was lighting a pipe. Moments later he sensed he was being followed by this man, and Schwartz began to run. The man with a pipe ran in his direction. Schwartz ran as far as one of the railway arches, but the man did not follow so far.
At about 12:40, Morris Eagle returned to the Berner street club, having walked his lady friend home. He told the coroner:
I am a traveler and a member of the Socialist club. I was at the club on Saturday night, and did not leave till after the discussion. I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.
At a similar time, another member of the club named Joseph Lave, told the press the following:
I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at that time, and I noticed nothing wrong.
Given a discovery time of about 1am, this places Lave out on the street at 12:45, and possibly beyond.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the following notion:
Who else but Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, could Israel Schwartz have effectively been talking about, when referring to the first and second man in his statement?
To suppose otherwise, while still regarding Schwartz's story as true, is to suppose that about 5 minutes after Eagle's return, the situation with Eagle and Lave was replicated. Once again a man reached the gateway, and once again a man was out on the street, seemingly going nowhere in particular. It's just that this time, the victim happened to be standing in the gateway, unknown to anyone inside the club. What are the chances? Combine this with the rather astonishing situation of no one outside the incident claiming to have seen or heard anything that would support Schwartz's claims, and it would be fair to ask; who was lying - Schwartz, or someone(s) else?
Swanson: Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.
But they might have been, and it would hardly be a stretch to suppose that Eagle and Lave were known to each other.
According to a press report:
Morris Eagle, one of the members of the club, left Berner street about 12 o'clock, and after taking his sweetheart home returned to the club at about twenty minutes to one with the intention of having supper. He walked up the yard and entered the club by the side entrance but neither saw nor heard anything to make him suspect foul play was going on. Of course he might have passed the body in the darkness, but the probability is that he would have stumbled over it if the murder had been committed before that time.
At the inquest, he said:
Coroner: Can you say if deceased was lying there when you went in?
Eagle: It was rather dark and I cannot say for certain if anything was there or not. I do not remember whether I met any one in Berner-street when I returned to the yard, neither do I remember seeing any one in the yard.
According to Schwartz, the second man had a clay pipe in his hand. According to the same press report as above:
Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air, and for five minutes or more he strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.
So when did Liz Stride arrive at the gateway, I wonder?
What is interesting about Lave, is that his timing, location, and behaviour, is a close match to Pipeman, who also seems to be going nowhere in particular, when first spotted by Schwartz. With the exception of the pipe, that is. Yet it does not seem from my reading of older and newer Berner street threads, that anyone has ever wondered out loud; could Joseph Lave have been Pipeman? Unfortunately we don't have a physical description for Lave. The situation is the same for Eagle, as far as I know. Except that in Eagle's case, we do have an artists sketch to compare to Schwartz's description.
first man, who threw the woman down: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.
Casting Eagle as the broad-shouldered man, and Lave as Pipeman, in my opinion helps in understanding Wess's comments to the Echo journalist:
In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.
He says the man who gave chase is not a member of the club, but he cannot remember the man's name. Convenient, much? What is more fundamental than that question, is how Wess knows of the Schwartz incident at all. The 'grapevine' theory, which is not supported by any evidence, relies on getting information about the incident into the club, past the police who guard the entrances, and past the paywall set up by Wess himself. It also has to supply the name of the man who have chase. Astonishingly, Wess seems to have known more about Pipeman, than the police did - even days later.
The 'switch' must also be considered. The man pursued was perceived as being the murderer, by unidentified members of the public. Obviously that was not how Schwartz described the same event. It seems Wess wanted to point the finger at the pursued man. Why?
In contrast to the 'grapevine' or 'Chinese whispers' theory, the theory here is that Eagle, Lave, and Wess tried to hide what had really gone on, on the street, and then Schwartz arrived at Leman street station to give his account. In this theory, Schwartz has no connection with the club, and has no idea who he had seen on the street. Just to be clear, what did go on, on the street, is not part of the theory beyond what Schwartz claimed to have witnessed. So Eagle may have tossed Stride out of the yard, called out to Lave who chases away Schwartz, and then the two men go back into the club. Stride is still alive at this point, or she may not be - that is not part of the theory.
I also have another theory, again with Eagle as BS man, and Lave as Pipeman, but with Schwartz known to the club - actually a member. This is a more radical and so less likely theory. In this theory, the man pursued never actually comes forward to give a statement. He is chased away and runs off into the darkness, and his identity is now lost to history. Israel Schwartz is a man who pretends to be the man pursued. In his somewhat comical efforts to give himself an orthodox Jewish appearance, he overdoes things and ends up looking to the lads at Leman street, like someone in the theatrical line.
There is quite a lot more I could add on this subject, but the post would get too long. So just in point form for now:
* From what direction did Eagle enter Berner street?
* Whose boots were responsible for the 'measured, heavy tramp'?
* Could Eagle have been responsible for the call of 'Lipski'?
* Who is Joseph Lave?
* Where exactly did Lave go, after having been on the street?
* Who and what time did James Brown see a couple talking, by the board school?
* Who, where and when was the couple who spoke to the press, and possibly also to Fanny Mortimer?
* What happened immediately after the discovery?
* Who went for police, in what order, and in what directions did they go?
* What did the police make of Wess's claims, as described in the Echo report?
There is of course, one very big question that the Eagle and Lave were the men seen by Schwartz theory, leaves unanswered. Did Eagle kill Stride? If yes, why? If not, who did?
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