Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Dusty.

It would help you understand my position better if you remember that I do know the affiliations of all the main characters, including Issac's..essentially Louis's 17 year old apprentice if you will...and that what I suggest about fabricating times would only apply to those most involved with the clubs operations...not just a mere membership.

Those most involved in this scenario are Wess, Krantz, Eagle and Diemshitz. And the stories that Eagle and Louis give are contradicted by the stories given by mere members and 2 outside sources...Mortimer and Spooner. 2 people who would lose nothing if the club members/operators were found to be culpable in this murder.

And the dislike that you suggest Heschberg had for the club is somewhat compromised by the fact that he is there singing with other members at 1am, no?

Cheers Dusty

[drstrange169]

Hello Michael,

1. But they did estimate their time, and they did come from a location that would have had clocks,

As did every other witness, with the exception of Deimshits, who actually saw a clock and Spooner who had no idea.

Question: If Deimshits invented the story about the Harris clock, how could he know whether or not somebody might be near Harris's to expose his lie? The far safer option was not to be specific as to where he got the time from, just like everybodyelse.

..and both corroberate each other,

Actually no, Heshburg says he came because he heard the police whistle, this is at odds with Kosebrodsky's account who says he went looking for a policeman at the time same time Heshburg claims to have arrived at the club.
It's not the only thing at odds with Isaac's poor English translation. He claimed Deimshits sent him alone to look for a policeman, but Spooner makes it clear two men ran down Fairclough to Grove. Once more, the issue you're not factoring in, is he could not speak English well and consequently what he says not should be taken as correct, as both Heshburg and Spooner prove.


...What is a fact is that these 2 witnesses would have no stake in the issue of the club having anything to do with the murder....Diemshitz and Eagle do.

Again, no.
Why is Kosebrodsky not linked to the club? He was a member and being a socialist club, just as involved as any other member.
Heshburg makes it quite clear in his interviews that he dislikes the club.

3. Mortimer ... never identified Goldstein as the man she saw that passed by,...

Possibly true, possibly not, we don't know if Mortimer was asked to identify Goldstein at any stage.

... nor did she see a cart and horse driven by Louis Diemshitz arrive at 1am...even though she was at her door.

And yet one did and it coincides with Deimshits's alibi.

4. Passing directly past the house is not the only way Fanny could hear the sounds being made.

She didn't say she heard a cart in the distance leaving, she said it passed her house, the two are very different.

No other witness saw anything in front of the gates from 12:35 on, and that includes the return of Eagle at 12:40, Lave looking into the street from the gates at 12:40, a scuffle with Liz at around 12:45, or an arrival of a horse and cart at 1am,... those witnesses have only their own words as proof of anything occurring at the time they said it did.

Correct.

As a general rule I hesitate to accept statements verbatim from sources that stand to lose money, their occupation and their social club if their accounts suggest club culpability in any form. I do welcome statements from sources that have no stake in the outcome of any action that might result from their remarks.

Again you're presupposing Kosebrodsky had nothing to do with the club, despite the fact that he was a paid up member. I don't share your confidence, neither do I accept the truthfulness of his claims as reported in the newspapers, however, Spooner, IS someone who genuinely appears to have no connection to the club and he disputes Kose's claims. You are also not factoring in Heshburgs dislike of the club.

[Michael W Richards]

[I][B]

All corrections gratefully received, but I haven't read an error in my post as yet.

1. Heshburg and Kosebrodsky admitted they didn't know the time.

3. Spooner and Lamb are not reliable.

3. Mortimer endorses Diemshits and Golsteins story.

4. Diemshits pony didn't pass Mortimers house to get to Cable Street from the club.

Hi Dusty,

Without doing a long drawn out rebuttal, on the above;

1. But they did estimate their time, and they did come from a location that would have had clocks,..and both corroberate each other, and both times were at least 15-20 minutes before Diemshitz says he even arrived.
2. Completely subjective opinion, not a fact. What is a fact is that these 2 witnesses would have no stake in the issue of the club having anything to do with the murder....Diemshitz and Eagle do.
3. Mortimers story confirms Goldsteins story.... which was provided after Fannys statement was made public in the papers....so, Leon could have made his statement with the knowledge that she saw someone pass the gates. She never identified Goldstein as the man she saw that passed by, nor did she see a cart and horse driven by Louis Diemshitz arrive at 1am...even though she was at her door.
4. Passing directly past the house is not the only way Fanny could hear the sounds being made.

No other witness saw anything in front of the gates from 12:35 on, and that includes the return of Eagle at 12:40, Lave looking into the street from the gates at 12:40, a scuffle with Liz at around 12:45, or an arrival of a horse and cart at 1am,... those witnesses have only their own words as proof of anything occurring at the time they said it did.

As a general rule I hesitate to accept statements verbatim from sources that stand to lose money, their occupation and their social club if their accounts suggest club culpability in any form. I do welcome statements from sources that have no stake in the outcome of any action that might result from their remarks.

Best regards

[drstrange169]

There are NO witnesses to Louis arrival...and no witnesses to Eagles.

Depends on your definition of "arrival", approximately 30 people witnessed
Eagle and Diemshits's entry into the club and one witness heard Diemshits
cart arrive.
As I said, the alternative is Heshburg who admits he was guessing (so we know he either, didn't own or at least look at a clock) and Kosebrodsky who was unable to string English sentences together.

And no witnesses to Israels alledged altercation.

Aint that the truth!

Both witnesses from the club that stated an earlier time came straight outside from the club, and it stands to reason there would have been clocks or people with timepieces available inside.

But it doesn't stand to reason they stopped to look at the clocks as they rushed out of the club to see the body.
In Kosebrodsky's case, the newspaper report you're referring to, has Kosebrodsky saying "about twenty to one", which means he DIDN'T see a clock, he was merely taking a guess at the time. These tiny details are the important ones.
The fact that various club members gave various times indicates, that if there was an attempt to conspire, it was a dismal failure, alternatively there was no clock in the club, or perhaps the merry choir were simply not clock watching. We know from Kosebrodsky that he specifically was guessing the time.


Eagle, and Louis, are associated with the club by paycheque...and neither had watches or current time clocks to look at.

Incorrect, Diemshits did have a clock to look at, Harris's clock.

Point is that neither could be corroborated by anyone as to their arrival times.

By your own theory, if there was a clock/s in the club, about 30 people could have corroborated their arrival times. If these clocks work for your theory they work equally easily well for Eagle and Diemshits to note the time.
Far more importantly, even if everyone had access to a timepiece, there was no synchronization between the various people. One man's 12:45 on the clock could easlily be another woman's 1:00.
Diemshits, of course didn't need a watch, he took his time from the Harris clock and it's not unreasonable to guess that Schwartz and Goldstien may have too.

Pc Lamb may have been confusing Johnson with Blackwell.

And he may not have.


Spooner did not say he stood there between 12:30 and 1am, he said that after leaving the pub at closing on Commercial Street he and his lady friend walked casually to the spot outside the Beehive and were chatting for about 10 minutes. If you do the math that equates roughly with Heschberg and Issac.

Spooner never mentioned Commercial Street, I'm assuming you mean
Commercial Road, confusing isn't it?
He said he walked around with his girl after the beer house in Settles Street closed until the arrival of the running men and he DID put the time as 12:30 to 1:00.

Neither the Arbeter Fraint, Nor Blackwell, nor Johnson could ever verify what time Louis arrived home. No-one could...no-one saw him arrive

If your clocks existed, Aberbeter Fraint (Krantz) could, as could 30 or so singers.

....so all we have is the witness timings here.

Which is exactly my point.A bunch of people with varying notions of time and NO actual evidence to support a theory one way or another.

All the medical men could do is estimate how long she had been dead, and the paper, run by Wess, of course would favor the story of Louis because he was the club steward. Lets not be naive.

Wess didn't run the paper, he was the club secretary. Krantz presumably favoured himself as, unlike us, he was there.

Those are the main points in your post that needed correcting.

All corrections gratefully received, but I haven't read an error in my post as yet.

Heshburg and Kosebrodsky admitted they didn't know the time.

Spooner and Lamb are not reliable.

Mortimer endorses Diemshits and Golsteins story.

Diemshits pony didn't pass Mortimers house to get to Cable Street from the club.

[DRoy]

Michael,

Good points. I'd like to also add something regarding Mortimer to your comments that could support your scenario but could perhaps hurt her reliability as an independent witness...

In regards to some of her comments in the press, she comments on things that appear to have been told to her by Louis a/o others from the club. Examples:

• I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in the pony cart.

• It was almost incredible to me that they could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. (Did she see this or did someone tell her?)

• and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets (her observation or was she told?)

• Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife (She knew his name. She nosy or him polite?)

• I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm. (obviously from received from Louis which only means they discussed details)

It makes me wonder how much of her story was fit to fit within Louis' account? This interview apparently took place in the afternoon after the murder so there was time for outside influence (Louis).

Maybe she had no idea what time it was until Louis said he got home about 1:00 so Mortimer then backtracked and guessed at the the 30 minutes prior to her being found therefore arriving at about 12:30 as to when she first went outside? She saw Liz for sure but did she see grapes and the sweets really or was this too from Louis and Kozebrodsky?

Cheers
DRoy

[ukranianphil]

Edward spooner did say he was standing outside the bee hive pub at the corner of christian street and fairclough street between half past 12 and 1am.
[jack the ripper source book page 163. stride inquest]


the woman who he was standing talking to, was it his wife, or "young woman" ?
hope someone can clear it up.

[Michael W Richards]

I've just caught up with this thread whilst I don't have definitive opinion either way about the truth of timings, I noticed that there are some loose interpretations of the infomation we do have.

Most of the witness's put Diemshitz coming back at 1:00a.m., some give conflicting times, and only two give a 12:45 time.

The two are Hesberg and Kosebrodsky. Hesberg is careful to qualify is estimate as a guess and Kosebrodsky could hardly speak English and so was consequently open to misinterpretation. Both these need to be regarded as dubious sources.

P.C. Lamb initially says he was called "shortly before 1:00, but goes on to say Blackwell arrived 10 minutes after him, which confirms Diemshitz's time.

Spooner is quoted as standing with his girlfriend from 12:30 -1:00 again supporting Diemshitz's timing. Ditto, Lave who is in the yard for 10 up to 30 minutes. Both these witness can legitimately be used by people arguing either the early or later timings.

The Arbeter Fraint (Krantz?) gives Diemshitz's arrival as 1:00, as does Eagle and Diemshitz himself. Blackwell claims to have been woken at 1:10, Johnston a little vaguer at just past 1:00 both reflect Diemshitz's declared arrival time. Mortimer and Goldstein also support Diemshitz.

More specifically about horses passing Mortimer's window, Diemshitz stabled his horse in Georges yard, Cable Street, but stored his goods at Berner Street. *IF* he did take his horse home before the police arrived (which the press reports say he didn't) he would NOT have passed Mortimer's window as it is in the opposite direction.

Elizabeth Strides murder may well have taken place earlier, but the is no credible evidence from the witnesses statements of events to prove the theory.

Dr Strange,

There are NO witnesses to Louis arrival...and no witnesses to Eagles. And no witnesses to Israels alledged altercation. Both witnesses from the club that stated an earlier time came straight outside from the club, and it stands to reason there would have been clocks or people with timepieces available inside. Eagle, and Louis, are associated with the club by paycheque...and neither had watches or current time clocks to look at. Point is that neither could be corroborated by anyone as to their arrival times.

Pc Lamb may have been confusing Johnson with Blackwell.

Spooner did not say he stood there between 12:30 and 1am, he said that after leaving the pub at closing on Commercial Street he and his lady friend walked casually to the spot outside the Beehive and were chatting for about 10 minutes. If you do the math that equates roughly with Heschberg and Issac.

Neither the Arbeter Fraint, Nor Blackwell, nor Johnson could ever verify what time Louis arrived home. No-one could...no-one saw him arrive....so all we have is the witness timings here. All the medical men could do is estimate how long she had been dead, and the paper, run by Wess, of course would favor the story of Louis because he was the club steward. Lets not be naive.

Those are the main points in your post that needed correcting.

Cheers

[drstrange169]

I've just caught up with this thread whilst I don't have definitive opinion either way about the truth of timings, I noticed that there are some loose interpretations of the infomation we do have.

Most of the witness's put Diemshitz coming back at 1:00a.m., some give conflicting times, and only two give a 12:45 time.

The two are Hesberg and Kosebrodsky. Hesberg is careful to qualify is estimate as a guess and Kosebrodsky could hardly speak English and so was consequently open to misinterpretation. Both these need to be regarded as dubious sources.

P.C. Lamb initially says he was called "shortly before 1:00, but goes on to say Blackwell arrived 10 minutes after him, which confirms Diemshitz's time.

Spooner is quoted as standing with his girlfriend from 12:30 -1:00 again supporting Diemshitz's timing. Ditto, Lave who is in the yard for 10 up to 30 minutes. Both these witness can legitimately be used by people arguing either the early or later timings.

The Arbeter Fraint (Krantz?) gives Diemshitz's arrival as 1:00, as does Eagle and Diemshitz himself. Blackwell claims to have been woken at 1:10, Johnston a little vaguer at just past 1:00 both reflect Diemshitz's declared arrival time. Mortimer and Goldstein also support Diemshitz.

More specifically about horses passing Mortimer's window, Diemshitz stabled his horse in Georges yard, Cable Street, but stored his goods at Berner Street. *IF* he did take his horse home before the police arrived (which the press reports say he didn't) he would NOT have passed Mortimer's window as it is in the opposite direction.

Elizabeth Strides murder may well have taken place earlier, but the is no credible evidence from the witnesses statements of events to prove the theory.

[Wickerman]

I still dont recall reading one statement that explains where that cart and horse were when all the hullabaloo started, and in a passageway that isnt much wider than 10 feet.....post to post the gates were around 9 feet something I believe....something would have to be done immediately.

Hi Michael.

This extract is close..
When Diemshitz dashed into the club, he was asked:

What did you do with the pony in the meantime?-I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct.

The cart apparently was not all that wide:

By a Juror.-Was there room for you to have passed the body with your cart?-Oh, yes. Mine is not a very wide cart; it only took up the centre of the passage. If my pony had not shied, perhaps I would not have noticed it at all. When I got down my cart passed the body. The barrow was past the body when I got down to see what it was.
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct.

(Cart=Barrow)

[Michael W Richards]

I thought I remembered this, it took a while to find it.

The pony was kept at George Yard, not the cart I assume, that would be unhitched and left in Dutfields Yard?

Diemshitz.
"It was one o'clock. I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow. The pony is kept at George-yard, Cable-street. I do not keep it in the yard of the club. I was driving home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard."
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct. 1888.

Thats a good observation Jon, it is probable that he would leave the cart in the yard based on the above. Or that he would offload the goods in the yard then stable both cart and horse in George Yard, but simply mentioned it as storing the pony.

We do know that he would have had to offload whether he discovered a body or not, and we do know that he would have to do something with the cart and horse from that moment on.

I still dont recall reading one statement that explains where that cart and horse were when all the hullabaloo started, and in a passageway that isnt much wider than 10 feet.....post to post the gates were around 9 feet something I believe....something would have to be done immediately.

So...if he drives the cart and horse into the yard past Liz,..why doesnt anyone mention it? If he leaves it back in the street in front of the gates...same question. If he orders someone to offload it for him...then why dont we hear that, and from that man?

Once Diemshitz finds Liz, his priority shifted..it was no longer about his goods in the cart or the pony....it was about the dead woman. But his responsibility to the storage of his goods and eventually his pony wouldnt just go away.

My question has been.....were the cart and the horse there when Spooner saw 2 men heading towards the club yelling "help,..another murder". When Fanny hears the cafuffle and comes over. When PC's Lamb and Collins arrive. When Johnson arrives.

There is though a line in the witness section of this site on PC Lamb, which says that after Lamb set an officer up at the gate and he did the club search and the member examinations....its states that he met Louis Diemshitz "who had gone back to his usual business".

Is that a reference to Louis offloading his cart? And if so....by whose word did this statement appear...a pressmans, the author of the witness page or Lamb himself? I do not see Lamb saying that at all in his Inquest appearance.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

I thought I remembered this, it took a while to find it.

The pony was kept at George Yard, not the cart I assume, that would be unhitched and left in Dutfields Yard?

Diemshitz.
"It was one o'clock. I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow. The pony is kept at George-yard, Cable-street. I do not keep it in the yard of the club. I was driving home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard."
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct. 1888.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I think what I was trying to get at is that Fanny heard a cart and horse and Fanny heard boots she thought were the sound of a policeman. Fanny didnt see a cart and horse arriving....nor did she see a policeman pass by....something I doubt quite highly....no policeman came forward stating that he had made a pass through Berner Street between 12:35 and 1am.

So we have to be careful about what we accept as gospel....thats why I raised the issue of where the cart and horse were after Louis went inside and from that point on.

I believe its at least possible Israel lived in one of the cottages until that morning. It would explain why he would be coming towards that spot...it would explain why he was there at all,...likely attending the meeting held by his now ex-landlord.

If Israels altercation took place within the passageway, not out in the street, then we would have no reason to doubt any witness who could have viewed the street outside the gates during that last half hour.

It would however mean that his story was altered, by himself or the translator, and that the offsite attack and gentile assailant were probably created for greatest effect. Anything less leaves us with the distinct possibility that her killer was inside the passageway when he met her, implying that he was a club member or attendee...implying that the Anarchist club on Berner Street also housed murderers. If the murder is thought to be a Ripper murder by association with the Mitre Square event, ...just think what a predicament the club, and all area Jews would have had then. Jack, an Immigrant Jew Socialist Anarchist Murderer.....riots, for sure.

Its remarkable how Israels story deflects all suspicion onto an offsite gentile....the club could not have hoped for a better story.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

DRoy.

You are likely looking for a detail that, although may have been mentioned in passing, no-one thought it significant enough to make a note of.
Whether Diemshitz moved his own cart or another member did it later, or even at the request of constable Lamb when he arrived is unknown.

It was probably taken further into the yard, until Diemshitz had the opportunity to resume what he was doing, that is, after the investigation was concluded, about 5:00am?

[DRoy]

Jon,

I don't recall if he was going to drop the entire cart there or just his left over stock but I believe it was just his merchandise.

I'd assume that he would have originally left his pony and cart right where he found Stride. But would he leave it there? Was that the safest place so his merchandise wouldn't get stolen? What about when he apparently left with Kozebrodsky? He doesn't say he moved the cart anywhere. Did he go with Kozebrodsky or did he stand guard over the cart and body? There were a lot of police and doctors and onlookers shortly after so where was the cart presumably moved?

Does the cart pose that much of a problem if we know he was arriving and not leaving?

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

What colour was the horse?

My point is,.....did Fanny hear a cart and horse arriving...or being led away to offload the merchandise in its stable on George Yard? Which is probably where Louis should have led his horse before going to Berner Street....so, why did he stop in at the Club when he still had to offload his cart elsewhere?

Best regards

Michael.
Do you think it likely that the police would allow the horse & cart to be turned around until their investigation was complete? Diemshitz would naturally take the horse & cart further into the yard where he was headed to begin with, though I don't recall any comment in the press about this.
Obviously there was insufficient room to turn the whole contraption around where he stopped.

Did he need to offload his cart elsewhere, or was that why he came by the Club in the first place?