Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[DRoy]

Dave,

Smith's inquest testimony shows even he wasn't aware of the correct time when he passed through Berner's (around 12:30 - 12:35) so is it not possible Mortimer was wrong as well and perhaps missed Smith by 1 minute?

What time is Mortimer most likely to be accurate about, when she first went outside or 4 minutes before Liz was found? Exactly.

So we can then estimate that if she thought she was outside for about 30 minutes, at the earliest she was outside around 20 (12:36 if Smith's 12:35 estimate is correct plus about 4 minutes before 1:00) and at the most about 25 (12:31 if Smith's 12:30 is correct plus about 4 minutes to 1:00). This of course isn't taking into consideration the exact time Liz being found.

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Le mystère de la chambre jaune

Ok, therefore she was there but saw nobody except Goldstein.
How can such thing be ?

Cheers

[DRoy]

Dave,

Who was she supposed to see? Please don't say Schwartz, Pipeman or BS Man!

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Hi Roy,

I will.
Eagle, Lave, BSM, Pipeman, Schwartz, and Stride.

Cheers

[Observer]

Dave,

Smith's inquest testimony shows even he wasn't aware of the correct time when he passed through Berner's (around 12:30 - 12:35) so is it not possible Mortimer was wrong as well and perhaps missed Smith by 1 minute?

What time is Mortimer most likely to be accurate about, when she first went outside or 4 minutes before Liz was found? Exactly.

So we can then estimate that if she thought she was outside for about 30 minutes, at the earliest she was outside around 20 (12:36 if Smith's 12:35 estimate is correct plus about 4 minutes before 1:00) and at the most about 25 (12:31 if Smith's 12:30 is correct plus about 4 minutes to 1:00). This of course isn't taking into consideration the exact time Liz being found.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi D

Been a while since I have visited Casebook, and I intend to revist the threads in order to address any outstanding issues I was involved in. But I have decided to start here, and ask you this question.

Where do you think Liz Stride was when Mortimer commenced her so called vigii?

You have expressed an opinion that Mortimer just failed to see PC Smith pass up Berner Street. Fair enough. But that still leaves Stride and Parcel Man standing facing her house after Smith had passed by them. Why did she fail to see Stride and Parcel Man standing opposite her house in Berner Street?

Indeed.

Why did Mortimer not see Stride at any time during the period she claimed to have stood at the door to her house?

I'm afraid Mortimer is not a very reliable witness

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Dave,

Did anyone at all see Schwartz? Pipeman? BS Man? Not one person. We do however know Mortimer was in the street because she identified Goldstein. Mortimer can't possibly be blamed for not seeing people that weren't there!

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Observer,

I was getting worried about you! Glad you're back.

Where do you think Liz Stride was when Mortimer commenced her so called vigii?

I think Stride was in the yard after Smith saw her. Hence nobody saw her.

You have expressed an opinion that Mortimer just failed to see PC Smith pass up Berner Street. Fair enough. But that still leaves Stride and Parcel Man standing facing her house after Smith had passed by them. Why did she fail to see Stride and Parcel Man standing opposite her house in Berner Street?

I believe she missed Smith because she came out of her house after the Smith
Sighting.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Hi D

A bad penny always returns ! haha.

Yes she could have missed Smith, but we have no indication of how long Liz Stride remained on the pavement with Parcel Man after Smith had passed. They were static at the time of the Smith sighting, stood still, as Hilda Baker would have it. Are you suggesting that after Smith had moved on his way Liz Stride and Parcel Man removed immediately to the yard?

Regards

Observer

[DVV]

Mortimer saw Goldstein, and Goldstein only.
Conclusion : she's a relevant witness for a while, only a while, shortly before Goldstein passed by until some minutes before Diemshutz' arrival.
Hence the 10 minutes in the first edition of the Evening News.

Cheers all

[DRoy]

Observer,

Makes sense doesn't it since nobody else saw or heard it.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Mortimer saw Goldstein, and Goldstein only.
Conclusion : she's a relevant witness for a while, only a while, shortly before Goldstein passed by until some minutes before Diemshutz' arrival.
Hence the 10 minutes in the first edition of the Evening News.

Cheers all

Dave,

You almost had it. Irrelevant the same way Schwartz was that she didn't see the murder take place. But...yet also relevant to say Schwartz's event either didn't happen at all or that there was something wrong that also made Schwartz not worthy of testifying.

Cheers
DRoy

[DVV]

Roy,

since I believe in the "10 minutes watch" referred to by the EN first edition (and btw accepted by Paul Begg), and since Goldstein hurried with his nightmarish black bag shortly before 1 o'clock, I have no problem either to put Mrs Mortimer outside just after BSM had murdered Liz Stride (thanks to who-you-know who pm both of us).

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi DRoy

Precisely : it's particularly difficult to estimate how long you have stayed here or there without watch.(Got this from Einstein.)
She said she was outside 10 minutes (estimation), she said she was home for 4 minutes when she heard the pony (estimation again).
I simply tend to believe she stayed outside less than 10 minutes, but spent time home ("preparing for bed") more than 4 minutes.

Cheers

I would imagine David that your use of the phrase "tend to believe" should really have been phrased "choose to believe", because as we both know Fanny Mortimer made her statement specific with respect to that last 10 minutes before 1am. She also stated that she had been at her door "off and on" since 12:30, so in that instance I expect you "choose" to believe she happened to be indoors when Israels supposed event occurs?

It seems to me that based on her statement and what has been established as a fact... that she did see Goldstein pass by the gates at around 12:56, that she likely was doing what she said she was.

Its funny how many people assume all the witnesses that dont see something a single witness says occurred are incorrect with their times, and the single witness who provides a tale without any substantiation is correct.

Despite his ludicrous story for being there in the first place.

Cheers David

[DVV]

Hi Michael,

Schwartz was hungarian, not ludicrous.
As for Mrs Mortimer, hey, she didn't see anyone except Goldstein.
Conclusion ?

Cheers mon cher

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Schwartz was hungarian, not ludicrous.
As for Mrs Mortimer, hey, she didn't see anyone except Goldstein.
Conclusion ?

Cheers mon cher

To your first line......but the intention was that you readdress what he says is his reason for being outside the club at that time....a story which is ludicrous.. from whatever nationality.

And to the second point, I believe Fanny provides us with a view of the front of the gates for that last 10 minutes, and all that happened during that time was that Goldstein passed by. Which of course would mean that BSM took Liz off the street to the place where she would die immediately after the alleged assault..before Fanny was at her door continuously, and that he cut her sometime between 12:46 and 12:56 in that passageway....leaving at least some 4 minutes until the time Louis says he arrives. And giving the killer an opportunity from 12:46 on to kill and then cut her up...before 1am. It would also mean the killer didnt leave via the gates after the cut. It would also mean that Goldstein passed by as Liz was either being cut or had just been cut..and he saw no-one when he glanced into the passageway at the club.

Of course Leon, ....like Louis, and Morris, and Joseph, and Wolff, ...were all club members....and Israel, an Immigrant Jew just like most of the meeting attendees inside, had nothing to do with the club or its meeting that night....he was just there to check if his wife had moved their belongings from some undisclosed address on Berner Street to their new accommodations over the preceding 12 hours since he left her to pack and move alone. A move that likely consisted of clothes.

How long would it take anyone to move a few suitcases, and if it was a job bigger than that, what kind of man lets his wife do all the heavy lifting and then shows up at 1am to see if he can help?

L-u-d-i-c-r-o-u-s.

Cheers David